I was in a gender harassment situation that I left about two years ago, and did not really think about my future as I was exiting the situation. I have had a lot of personal trauma around the experience, and realize that I can’t use my last job for reference even though I was there for five years. What should I do? I still need to be able to work.
I’m in my mid-twenties and I’ve found that whenever I start a job, after a few days or so, I start feeling trapped and stuck.
I fear the regular routine of the job, being stuck in the 9-5 (or whatever my hours are) and being forced to work for the money versus doing something I love with a mission I care about. I’ve tried working for things that I believe are doing great things for the world (kid-focused startup and working with kids, which I’ve learned I’m not good at) and I still feel like that. Any kind of job with routine (even varying retail jobs and the like) scare me and thinking about applying to a job with more challenge in it (not getting that out of my current job) but that same routine worries me that I’ll be stuck there for a year or two working on building my skills for the better but still trapped inside a prison even if it is at a well-funded startup.
I’m an INFP programmer who loves logic and hopes to start my own startup someday as I get frustrated with not being able to make my own decisions. I’m not sure if I should go forward with my plan to find a job with that routine while I get great to build my skills for my own startup someday or if I should try to find something without that routine and if so, what? It doesn’t feel like most people have that same reaction to the stability of doing the same thing every day. About the only thing I know is I’m sick of not having money and I need to find something that allows me to have that. What should I do?
First, as a reference point for everyone else, here’s a link to the personality traits of an INFP:
https://type-coach.com/types/infp
I see it is important for you to avoid routine, but it is not likely that you will enjoy running a startup. The tasks of a startup founder are routine, dull, administrative and a lot of brown-nosing. The people who succeed as startup founders are people who have no problem doing that or people who partner with someone who has no problem doing that.
I know it seems to you like everyone wants to do a job with deep meaning, but actually only very few people really care about that. So you are special in that regard, and you are very limited. People do not get paid a lot of money to do very meaningful work, because there are so many people who will do that work for free, on the side, to feel good about themselves.
You probably need a job where you are helping people directly. Teaching, social work, something like that. Or you need a job where you create deep meaning through art. None of those jobs pay well.
I think your biggest problem is that you feel that because you’re smart you should be making a lot of money. But that’s not how the world works. We can really only succeed in jobs that will feel fulfilling to us. And some people feel fulfilled doing jobs that pay a lot. It’s sort of a luck of the draw.
You are not going to feel fulfilled in a role as a programmer. There is not enough goodness in your everyday life. You need people and kindness and helping and values. If you focus on getting that kind of work instead of running a startup or making a lot of money then you will feel better about what you do with your days and other things will start to fall into place.
I hope this helps.
Penelope
There are a lot of different life solutions. Programmers and designers are coming up with new ways to “do good.” How do you want to set up your life? You could freelance as a programmer for 25 hours a week and then volunteer on the side.
You could work at http://www.khanacademy.org/careers or http://www.warbyparker.com/jobs or http://www.minervaproject.com/ (three that I quickly looked up)
I encourage you to look more into social enterprise, B Corporations (http://www.bcorporation.net/community/b-corp-jobs), impact accelerators/civic incubators/etc. (http://praxislabs.org/) and more. There are all sorts of organizations with good missions, not just non profits. You can feel financially secure AND help people.
I’m an INFJ going through a quarterlife crisis, and a lot of Penelope’s reply rings true for me, too. I determined a few months back I was heading down the wrong career path, and set out to find a better fit. I did all kinds of self discovery exercises and research and sought career counseling and feedback from loved ones.
My new plan is still taking shape, but a breakthrough occurred when my boyfriend pointed out that I kept saying I wanted to make a lot of money, but that through all this exploration, the consensus was that I’m a creative type more interested in people and life than business. (And creative types–particularly those not drawn to business–aren’t, ya know, known for their high incomes or anything.)
He told me I needed to choose what to sacrifice: a big paycheck or career satisfaction. That moment changed things for me, and I let go of the financial goal. I had always associated my intelligence and work ethic with being paid a lot, but as Penelope says here, that’s not the way it works.
Best of luck to you!
Hey there,
I know your pain. I’m an INTP who spend 14 years in IT. I think I’ve been through similar situations and arguments with myself to those that you have descripted.
An approach that worked for me was basically, to do both what you love and what pays the bills. I did this by volunteering and using my IT skills to help a couple of organisations that needed the help, whose ethics I agreed with or that I just found fun. In my case I helped out a couple of local, volunteer radio staions, as well as the local branch of Amnesty International. As an IT guy with heaps of experience, I could see solutions to problems that they weren’t even aware they had. Such as knocking up a quick database to use as a library system for reference material at Amnesty, or taking a scrapped, ancient PC that had been scavanged, dropping in an equally ancient modem and turning it into a fax server for a radio station (radio stations *still* receive dozens of faxes per day of press releases!).
I have other friends that volunteer their time developing or maintaining websites for charities, or work with a local city council to refurb ex-government PCs and giving them away to pensioners for as little as possible.
Once you start looking you’ll be able to find something where you can use your skills that will still give you that ‘buzz’ you need, without sacrificing the job that pays your bills. It’s also a great way to network.
I have a similar situation/question. I am (I think) a highly creative person, a writer…went to school for writing, but also grew up EXTREMELY poor…basically I often feel like my one motivation in life is to not/stop being poor. Kind of hard to do when my only talent (literally) is writing… extremely introverted, can’t deal with office politics/micromanagement, and can’t even really deal with rote/repetitive tasks anymore.
So I’ve been told my whole life I can’t make a living writing, need to get a day job… and the kind of creative writing I do, without giving too many identifying details…it’s esoteric/experimental/ a ‘dead art’… i.e., not commercial fiction or any fiction.
Also, because my health is very poor (chronic stuff that’s unlikely to change), can’t do physical and/or loud things like waitering, working in retail, etc. just to pay the bills. I’m easily stressed & overwhelmed, need lots of alone time to recharge, etc….to kind of an extreme degree, which I think people sense & withdraw from. It’s a lonely life.
I’m somewhat new to your blog but liking it & wondering if you are familiar with the whole Highly Sensitive Person way of thinking. I definitely am a HSP, and definitely on the autism spectrum. I don’t say this to wallow in labels but because I think knowing those terms about myself has helped me not go off the deep end entirely. Also I mention this because in one of the books I have partially read (I do have trouble finishing what I start, but so do we all), it mentions how while no one adores drudgery, it’s especially bad/ toxic for a HSP because they identify with their work so heavily…which I explain better below…I don’t work linearly. Maybe that’s a helpful bit of info.
Basically not knowing what I can do in this world, going nuts, and feeling very stuck! Been unemployed/underemployed for years living w/ family, that’s not going well or very good for me, they’re not supportive people (not ambitious, but also i don’t think they’d know where to begin in terms of “being supportive”) & I have pretty much alienated everyone with my issues over the years (reinforcing my extreme introversion). I definitely have self-worth issues outside of the what-to-do-for-a-living business growing up and being as an adult as desperately poor as I am, but, like a typical American, I (rightly or wrongly) see my work as an extension of my *self,* and want to be fulfilled in my work, proud of what I do, etc.
If I feel my work is meaningless or not rewarding psychologically (or monetarily– no one likes being exploited) I will quickly deteriorate in terms of my mental health, plain and simple. I am a bit more fragile than most people in this regard and would rather “cut my nose to spite my face” rather than endure a bad work situation (learned from a few bad work situations I’ve had). I’m in my late 20s and because of this in-work/ out-of-work jumping around I have a lot of education but not enough work experience to be seen as ‘hireable.’ Other people my age have about 7 years of work experience and I have barely 2 years (I was fortunate to have scholarships to not have to work through school–went to local public college– because there’s no way I could have mentally handled work + school, so I’m hesitant to go back to school for something more “practical,” picking the wrong thing/getting in debt, and still being unable to find work).
First I thought many years ago my path would be teaching, but I dislike the bureaucracy/ restrictions/lack of freedom in the public schools, and I lack the experience to teach adults (which I wouldn’t mind, but it’s very competitive, and if it wasn’t painfully obvious, I’m not a competitive person). Then I thought my path would be just a string of general admin jobs…but can’t deal with office politics/ backbiting etc (most of my bad experiences clustered here). Then I thought my path would be publishing or publishing-related…given my interest/background in writing…not giving up hope on that but it’s also super-competitive and I’m a little old to be competing with college-age kids with more experience than I have…and not enough experience to apply for anything not entry-level, and no experience in publishing per se. (Have basically jumped around different kinds of nonprofits over the years.) So I really don’t know what to do. I test as INFJ or INTJ usually.
I don’t think I have the guts to “be my own boss” as much as I fantasize about it, because I would like the stability of a regular paycheck. I like to eat regularly & I don’t have a problem with regular hours per se, but I am really at a wall. Any advice would be appreciated as most advice I get is usually “think positive” and “suck it up and get [any] job” & I don’t think that advice is helpful, but I get branded a “pessimist” if I dare say so (and, a little tangentially, it’s really hard to overcome that “reputation” of being a “pessimist” just because I have more needs than some people).
I apologize in advance if this is posted in the wrong place; I think I have a similar fear-of-endless-misery as the OP. And sorry for the long post, but I wanted to lay out the difficulties I’m facing in stark detail because when I try to spare people of the details I usually get back ‘bootstraps’ replies like ‘stop feeling sorry for yourself.’ I am not laying about, I volunteer (no jobs there) and network (no leads there & I suck at it), and I do know the value of time and of the fact that I’m running out of it & I am very considerate of the fact that I can’t rely on my family forever. I wish I could just relax and ‘go at my own pace’ but apparently my own pace is too damn slow! And I’m really motivated to break out of poverty though I’m often discouraged at how it never seems to happen! So I hope you and others could comment constructively.
Wow, I could’ve written this myself. I’m hopeful that this will be addressed by someone because I suspect this is a widespread problem. Thanks for being brave enough to type all this out, Kat.
I could’ve written that, weird. Love from UK. 20 something graduate who has to do mundane jobs to keep the flow but would really love to work on my passion. The problem here though, is being too tired from the 9-5 to think about anything else.
@Kat – I’ll admit that as I read through your comment, I thought to myself, ‘Wow. How negative. And wow, excuse after excuse.’ But I can relate, as I’m constantly told to “focus on the positive.” My advice is to stop seeking advice from people who don’t understand you, because they’re always going to confuse your honesty for pessimism.
I explained to my mom the other day that she’s mistaking a lack of passion and a discomfort for doing work that goes against–or at least doesn’t support–my values and beliefs for pessimism. I told her, “When I express my frustrations to you, it’s not me being negative, it’s me feeling “dead” about my work. I’m thinking to myself, ‘This is not what life’s about. These things don’t actually matter in life. I’m supposed to be doing things that matter. That contribute positively to people and the world. How do people do these mundane, meaningless tasks all day and not think twice? Why do you people care about this shit?!’” Again, I’m just being honest, but she calls it negativity.
I recently wrote to Penelope about some of my frustrations, and she agreed the source of my dissatisfaction is that I’m not doing work I care about. And that’s the key (and the challenge)–figuring out what I can provide to the world that’s both of value to others and actually matters to me. I think this notion may be helpful for you, too.
Good luck!
Cassie love how you put the pessimism thing across in comment above, your right negativity is not necessarily negativity.
I know exactly how you feel. I’m also an INFP/J (with almost no preference between P and J). I’m 36, and my career has never really left entry level because I end up with work that feels meaningless. I usually end up wanting to do or try something else, which means starting over again at entry level. I like working with big ideas, but much of the time it’s hard to get paid to just work with those ideas without putting up with minutia. My background is in social work and law – both areas that encompass huge, meaningful ideas, but really deal with fine details in the execution of jobs you can actually get paid for doing, and are highly stressful.
I’ve dealt with this partially by making sure I have a successful personal life – primarily with my family. I prioritize the personal, and it helps me to deal with the fact that my soul gets sucked out by work part of the time. I have small children right now, so there is some social acceptability to this that is perhaps lacking for others. I haven’t always had a good personal life; when my personal life has been bad, it makes work so much worse. I also try to keep to jobs that aren’t incredibly stressful, because high work stress makes my personal life suffer.
The second thing that’s helped me is defining a primary goal. It’s not necessarily something that’s work-related or pays money. Right now, my primary goal is homeschooling my kids (the oldest is 4 right now) without going completely broke. So whatever I do next has to fit with that big goal. It’s going to require some changes, and it’s scary. Whatever I end up doing probably won’t make me a ton of money. My goals aren’t always the right ones for me. Last year I started a small business that I may have been able to succeed at eventually, but it would have damaged my personal life in the long-run. Since, my personal life is what’s most meaningful to me, I’m killing the business. It took awhile to accept this outcome, but since it also doesn’t match my other primary goal (homeschooling), I’m ok with it.
ACassie–Given that in your own life your honesty is taken for pessimism, it’s disheartening to have you almost repeated that about my own case. I would seriously like to know what “excuses” I have made for myself. I put myself through school. I have physical disabilities plural. I also said I volunteer and actively network, so I’d like to know what excuses I’m making in trying to lay out (in long form, yes) a complex situation (requiring long form writing).
Poverty *is* a barrier. Not all barriers are excuses. Some people have more barriers than others. I’m all for personal responsibility in this society, but I really dislike how that ideology of “personal responsibility” is used to mask a real philosophy closer to “every man for himself.” How about we take a minute and not perpetuate that? Maybe this is why so much advice I read on jobs falls flat and doesn’t ring true with me & led me to write the post I wrote– because it goes into this “personal responsibility” stuff that really is thinly veiled “you’re on your own” stuff? The reality of the situation is far more nuanced–that NO ONE is on their own, that we all need EACH OTHER.
In the end, I don’t have to answer to anyone for being wired the way I am, as an extreme introvert, but I would also like to, heaven forbid, find meaningful work that doesn’t make me want to kill myself. This quest– to not want drudgery– and to be told I’m “negative” because of it, is endlessly draining and does affect my search; it affects a lot of day-to-day things to have honesty repeatedly interpreted as negativity: should I kill myself? Censor myself just to get by? But I suppose that’s an “excuse” too, to admit that I am a human being with feelings that get hurt. To put out there that I’m not a work-til-you-die machine.
In this light, @Karen, your post was *infinitely* more helpful than Cassie’s because it tried to be constructive, so thank you for that. I do know how to give credit where it is deserved, and to be grateful for generosity when generosity was given.
Like you, Karen, I have had diverse job experiences, the problem with that being that I don’t line up with anyones concept of having enough experience for them. I’m also tired of starting out at the bottom periodically, or, alternatively, being dismissed as “overqualified.”
All this stuff I read about ‘transferrable skills’– how does one get people to recognize them so that you’re not starting at the bottom again and again? I also have trouble making goals, but with technology we were all told we could have flexibility and have several different careers in our lifetimes–was this just a lie? I’m a grown adult, but I have to start at the bottom again and again?
There’s got to be a better way. But saying that these days is risky– that’s what “pessimists” say.
@Kat, I’m sorry my comment seemed disheartening and unhelpful to you, and that you let me know it in a rude way. My response came from a good place (I wouldn’t have bothered commenting had I not genuinely been trying to help), and I offered advice (stop seeking answers from people who don’t understand you) and a goal for you to work toward (figuring out the career that lies at the intersection of something you care about and something the WORLD cares about).
I understand it’s frustrating to get big-picture comments like that, believe me I do. You want specifics, answers, action items…practicality, as you’ve said. We all do. I can’t give you that kind of advice because I’m trying to figure all that out myself, but I can commiserate and relate, and share things that have been helpful for me. That’s what I tried to do here.
Perhaps my message had undertones of the “every man for himself” philosophy you dislike, and maybe that’s where our disconnect is coming from. While I agree with you that we all need each other and can and should be able to rely on others for help, I also agree with the idea that we’re each individually responsible for our professional success. Personal life is one thing, but for career, yes, I do think it’s 100% up to each of us to make good decisions (which can include seeking the help of a career coach or others–to me, making the decision to ask for help is still in-line with maintaining ownership of your path.).
I’m sorry I can’t tell you exactly what to do or give you advice that you find constructive, but for me, discovering alternative ways of thinking about career (via Penelope’s blog) and reading about new-to-me concepts like “multipotentiality” (via Puttylike.com) have given me the tools and inspiration I needed to get out of my rut and into a “I’m definitely going to figure this out” mind-set. But maybe that’s only helpful for me–I suppose I’ve always preferred to be guided over instructed. Since our personality types are the same or similar, I thought what is helpful for me may be helpful for you. Not so, apparently.
I *was* trying to help, though. I was trying to let you know you’re not alone, as your most recent comment indicates is important to you. But as that received a snippy response, I’ve noted that’s not at all what you’re looking for, and I’ll get out of the way and make room for *infinitely* more helpful comments.
Oh dear,
The conversation seems to have taken a turn for the worse. I’d like to get back to our programmer friend who instigated this little chat.
I feel you, 100%. Working in a job that we don’t feel passionate about can be very stifling to us INFPs (I’m very good at faking extroversion though 
). With that in mind, these are some highly actionable tips that I think will help you, and perhaps some of the others in this comment stream:
1. Do work/activities you care about before you go to work (yes, you’ll have to wake up earlier, sorry): For me, doing the work I loved after getting home from my job was difficult. I found that I had little creative energy and usually just wanted to open a bottle of wine and watch TV. This was very stressful for me because once I have something that I want to work on, it’s very tough to get my mind off of it. So it only got worked on during the weekend. As soon as I read Turning Pro by Steven Pressfield (which I devoured in a Sunday afternoon) I had the epiphany to do my work before I went to my job. What happens when you do that is you flip the tables on your work/life routine. It’s like standing up and saying, “This is my life and I’m in control,” which helps with I’m not-feeling-like-I’m-making-my-own-decision-ness (phew). It’s great having some personal time/work to look forward to every day regardless of what day it is or what’s expected of me. Trust me, it feels great.
With that newfound time in your day you could work on a hobby, explore new interests, or anything else that you feel is creative or productive. I use mine to work on current projects, but if you’re trying to find a career that’s meaningful to you it would be a wonderful time to research. Even if you don’t currently have a job, this structured time will do wonders for you.
2. Do what Seth Godin says and, “Just pick!”: Getting stuck in indecision is a very terrible trap. You’re constantly second-guessing yourself because if you pick this then it might turn out to be the wrong thing. If you pick that, well maybe you’re selling yourself short; certainly you are more capable than doing that.
I like what Seth says about it because the truth is that the exploration of a new thing (career, idea, etc) is the interesting part, not the eventual outcome. You’re never going to be happy with what you pick if you’re expecting that the outcome is the thing that’s worth it. As a fellow INFP I know what it’s like to constantly chase the new shiny object, so trust me when I say it’s far more worthwhile doing something because of the exploration; because you’ve never done before. There are layers of depth in every field; there’s always something new to learn or to master.
3. Stop judging yourself harshly and stop relying on what others think of you (been here, too): There have been some interesting insights into the classic Ellsberg Paradox where they’ve removed any social context from the experiment. What they find, when people are told that nobody will find out about their decision is, is that participants make wildly different choices. We’re socially driven animals, so it makes sense that social context has such a huge impact on us. However, because of how modernized we’ve become it’s no longer that important of a factor in our everyday survival.
You don’t need anybody’s permission to work in a career you like or to take time to experiment with different fields. Tell people to piss off if they don’t get it.
In the end, it doesn’t matter if you end up switching careers several times, if that’s what you want to do. The important thing is to listen to yourself, not to what others expect of you. Hope this helps in some small way.
@Cassie– Look, this is not the forum for a kind of comments-competition, and while I didn’t *want* to start that, it had to be said that there were elements of what you said that were not helpful, vs a different post that was helpful. Take that as you want, but –just echoing back what you just said– “there’s no need to get an attitude about it.” Meaning, as I see it, that if I can’t “get an attitude,” you can’t either. Two to tango, etc. Not being good at the interpersonal stuff, I’m not going to dwell on it either, and get to meat-and-potatoes stuff rather than drown in 2D intonations. Aka I’m going to be ‘task-oriented’ here, even though, guess what, this stuff is emotionally charged– I don’t understand people who don’t get emotionally charged about the topic of *what to do with one’s livelihood* and *how to make a life you won’t despise.*
It’s frustrating to hear general anything and then hear “I can’t give you specific advice.” I think in general–again, Cassie, don’t extrapolate this as being a barb, I did say ‘in general’– people say this as a kind of cop-out and a way of hoarding information, so that people don’t edge in on their markets. Only because I have heard this so many times and read so many self-help books and done so much therapy, as you imply I need things “beyond” this blog or that blog. These are *human* issues, not just my personal mental health whatever issues, I’m perfectly oriented x3, so let’s not introduce red herrings into the content of what I’m saying even if the style is not one’s cup of tea.
I have done jobs that weren’t writing-related– I’m not going to rehash my life story here. But if I could pick one issue, here it is:
I *know* now with growing clarity each day that any job that isn’t writing– getting paid for writing– I am going to resent and loathe with every fiber of my being. And I also know that such anger and resentment at my work, since we all spend a lot of our lives working, is liable to create/worsen my existing health problems and I’ll die prematurely. And this also is not because of my alleged mental health issues as you needed to imply, my “personality,” or anything else– but the well-documented fact that stress kills, that stress causes health problems. So I get a mental health label for the crime of being concerned about my life? Can we all take ourselves a little less seriously, please? Really, if my– or anyone’s — tone rubs the wrong way, maybe consider the content of what they are saying. I can think of no more urgent task than *liking,* or *loving,* one’s work. Can you? Or have you (general “you,” don’t freak out) resigned certain parts of your life?
I have been told my whole life “get a day job,” “good luck with the competition,” etc. It’s only gotten worse with the Internet (which really took off when I was a teen–so I’ve lived life with and without the Internet, a perspective generations after me don’t have). With the Internet, everyone is a self-declared writer. I devoted years of my life to it and I’m competing against people with gimmicks. Could you possibly feel the pain I feel from my craft being de-valued so, that “everyone” can do it? Not everyone can. And I unfortunately feel that I contribute to that de-valuing in a way, having a lot of my work out there.
So, keeping it really super simple: I know what I’m meant to do on this planet. It’s what I have done for years and yet can’t make a living off of. What does that mean? That I’m not “talented” (whatever that means)? That it’s time to stop fantasizing and throw in the towel– until and unless I too can come up with a gimmick?
In an economy where there are millions and millions of “writers,” should I also resign myself to a string of “day jobs” and not being happy and an early death?
That’s not a histrionic question. Stress kills, and I’ve kept it as plain as possible. I think it’s the question on the minds of people coming to this page. I hope my passion and urgency come of as helpful clarifications of a common issue, not my “attitude,” “personality,” or whatever other unnecessary and distracting politicization of my comments anyone can think of is. I actually do have other things to do, as do you, and I don’t want to “get the last word.” I do want *helpful, practical* advice, and yeah, I am too poor for career counseling. I know, poverty is a moral failing, etc. That is bitterness. I’ll acknowledge it when I do it. But I also think people on the Internet could tone down the self-regard by a lot in order to have a real focused collaboration rather than a War of the Identities.
@Kat – OK. Good luck to you!
I was wondering if you had any advice at all about how you overcame eating disorder/ other problems when younger?
Because I’m 21 and bulimic and kind of like a failed university student, as in I’m meant to be in my fourth year now of Arts/Law in Sydney, but I haven’t completed a single subject this year and have a history of withdrawing from subjects/ only doing part-time loads because I essentially feel afraid that I’m not going to do well enough so I don’t even try.
And I’m kind of at a point now where it feels like my life is over, and I have no future in anything, and I’m fat, and can’t seem to do anything and that I’m completely alone (even though I somehow have a really lovely boyfriend, but we are currently fighting because I keep feeling like he doesn’t want/ like me because I don’t feel worthy and he feels really upset that I don’t believe his words/ actions that are apparently evidence that he does like/ want me.)
I am on the 6-8 week waiting list to go to a residential/ inpatient psychiatric hospital to try and deal with the Depression/ Bulimia. But still, until then, and even after then, I just don’t understand how/ what I’m meant to do?
You are not in as bad shape as you think you are.
Don’t worry about not doing school right now. I missed two years of college being bulimic and insane and hating myself. In the long run, it didn’t matter that I wasted those two years. Those years don’t show up on your resume, you will never have to talk about them in job interviews, and no one cares how long it takes you to get through school. It’s much more important to figure out mental health issues than it is to get good grades.
The biggest problem with your throwing up is that (I’m assuming) you are sneaky and hiding, and that’s not good for your relationship. It helped me a lot to be able to tell my boyfriend “Go away. I’m going to throw up now.” At least then he knew that I was not avoiding him for some mysterious reason. I know this sounds insane, but look, you just need some tools to get yourself to where you get mental health services, right?
Don’t let the throwing up do long-term damage to your teeth. Rinse your mouth out with water after you throw up. Don’t brush your teeth right after. That will help lessen the damage to your teeth. Also, try to throw up food that you know will come up easily so you don’t have to torture yourself throwing up. Recognize that you are throwing up to solve some other emotional problem—it’s not about food. so you will need to solve the emotional problem to stop the throwing up. You can’t do that alone, so don’t get angry at yourself for throwing up right now. It’s a brain chemistry thing, but the problem is solvable. You have already signed up to get help. That’s the smartest thing you can do.
i guess what I want you to remember most is that you are going to be okay. You are going to learn to not hate yourself. Other people your age are not showing how hard it is for them, but it is hard for so many people.
Be patient with yourself. Be kind to your boyfriend if you cannot be kind to yourself. Try to be reasonable and not tell him every single thing you’re feeling. Try to keep him—keeping a good relationship is good for you.
Make sure you get mental health services. You have to have help with this. You can’t solve it on your own. No one can.
Penelope
This deserves to be on your main blog. Just heartfelt, practical and reassuring talk. Hope the 21yr old Sydney girl gets healthy soon.
I like this response, too, Penelope. I like that you tell her how to manage her condition today. I’d suggest using the system advocated by Dr. Ellie on her site: http://www.drellie.com/ I’ve used it. The first step is to use a mouthwash that neutralizes your mouth so that when you brush, you’re not scouring your teeth.
I am a 41-year-old single mom who needs to change the direction of her working life as a matter of mental survival. I’m a classic ENFJ kind of person and have been working behind a desk in isolation (I work in a suite of offices but the nature of our work is to remain quiet and alone) and it’s been wearing down my sanity.
I am absolutely in love with advertising and have always been but when I was young I didn’t choose to study it; it was too intimidating for me then. I’d love to be an ad account executive someday but getting started seems impossible from where I’m sitting. I’m reading everything I can get my hands on (marketing, too – it’s much drier but important to understand the basics) and bothering ad people for advice on how to get my foot in the door.
I have about two years to update my skills (before my daughter graduates from high school and I can focus on a career and/or live wherever I need) but very little money in which to make that happen. I can’t be a full-time unpaid intern; I have to pay bills and feed two people. I can be an evening and weekend person who is poorly paid, but with the abundance of free labor out there it’s tough.
I have a BS in Psychology, an MSW in Social Work and a strong background in writing and research. By nature I’m a collaborator, diplomat, convincer and intuitive, but those qualities can’t be put on a resume. I am not stubbornly stuck on working in advertising; something that is stimulating in a similar way would be wonderful, as long as it’s focused on people and ideas.
If you have any thoughts or advice for me I would very much appreciate either.
You’re just stuck on advertising because you need to feel like you have a way out of your current situation and that’s all you can see as a path. There are a million paths out of your current situation, but you have to be more flexible. ‘
What you really want is interesting work with interesting people. You are a people leader not a desk worker. So you need that.
You need to look at the skills you have and the experience you have and figure out how to rewrite your resume so it looks like you have already done the job you are trying to switch to.
This seems like an impossible thing to do when I say it, because it’s very hard for us (even me!) to see our resume and work history in a totally different light. But someone outside – a friend or a career coach — can see lots of different resumes from just one resume.
So the key to getting out a situation you don’t like is to find the easiest path out. For you, advertising is probably going to be hard. It’s an industry that is very hierarchical and rewards people climbing a ladder. It’s perceived as glamourous so lots of people will do it for free, and it favors young people. All things going against you. If you focus on advertising things look grim. But if you look for a path that goes from a new version of your resume to a new job that you will enjoy a lot more than your current one –that will start to look very manageable.
And you won’t need to hang on to advertising in order to stop feeling trapped.
Penelope
As an ENFJ at an isolated desk job, I feel her plight.
Change the resume – ok, great. But for which industry?
Is it as simple as needing to try out a bunch of new jobs to find one that sticks? Interesting people are found everywhere – that doesn’t give a whole lot of clear direction. Is there any to be found?
You don’t need to worry about the industry so much as the job duties. So, for example, if you have a few instances of human resource roles on your resume, but you have been a technical writer your whole life, you can rewrite your resume to focus on human resources and then get a job in human resources. It doesn’t matter what industry you’re in.
Or, you could look at it another way: you look at the industry you’ve been in and instead of changing inudstries, just rewrite your resume to focus on a different role within that industry.
Each of us has a certain type of thing we like to do each day — lead, help, think, craft, etc. — we can feel fulfillment doing those things in any industry. Focus on rewriting your resume to look as though you’ve already done the type of work you want to do all day so that you can switch to that type of work. The industry is not so important except at higher levels, where you need specific skills and specific industry experience.
Penelope
This is very helpful. Thank you.
Dear Penelope,
Thank you so much for your advice back in November. You were absolutely right.
The sanity-threatening job I had at the time was as someone who conducts research for nonprofit fundraisers in a higher education setting. I researched and wrote biographies on prospective donors, helped fundraisers strategize and did some analytics, among other things. The environment of my office was very strict, stressful and (although we all conducted ourselves professionally and held master’s degrees) we were treated with suspicion and intimidation.
When I wrote you, I had already applied for a job as a fundraiser but hadn’t heard back in so long I didn’t think I’d made the first cut. I emphasized the work I had already been doing for fundraisers in my resume and cover letter as well as my social work background (researchers have reputations as introverts and I wanted to address that up front). I got the call for my first interview the same afternoon that you wrote me with your advice, interviewed twice and got the job! Today is my 6th official day and I’m over the moon!
What fits so well with your advice – in addition to how my resume should reflect my work – is that with this position I will have the opportunity to do a little marketing and advertising. I’m responsible for small-gift campaigns throughout the year so I will be able to try my hand at segmenting, crafting appeals, writing phonathon scripts and designing collateral materials. I’m earning a little more as well. Not much more – it won’t make a difference in my finances – but it’s definitely a job that can lead to a better one, and has the potential to help me grow in different directions as well. I can move in the direction of nonprofit marketing or major gift fundraising, depending on how well I do this.
I am also treated as a valued professional: my new bosses are excited about my background and want to utilize my experience to make a few changes. As long as I’m doing my job well and attending meetings on time, I can pretty much do my own thing.
It took me a very long time to get out of my previous job. I was nearing the end of my rope and had looked for YEARS for the right thing to come along, so I don’t want to give the impression to anyone that it was simple. But it is true that if you open your mind to more types of jobs that have an element or two of the career you think you’d like to have, you can take advantage of those elements to be happier and/or keep moving in the direction you’d like to go. And preserve your sanity in the process. Some of it, anyway.
Thank you Penelope!
No Longer Dying
Woo-hoo! Someone directed me to this! Just the advice I was looking for. I can’t leave my position yet but when it become financially possible, this will be key. I alwaydd thought I was constrained by industry.
I love your posts about how to succeed in the work world as a woman with Asperger’s. Perhaps you could use your unique perspective to give non-asperger’s individuals some insight into how they should work with people that do have it? I think that for your socially adept readers that who have learned to recognize the signs of Asperger’s, it would be nice to have some concrete advice on how to interact with co-workers that seem to have it.
I am learning to adapt to my co-worker’s preferences (I believe he has Asperger’s) and am trying to be considerate, for example, by not making too much pointless small talk. More guidance as to how I should conduct myself would be just the kind of post I’d love to read! I feel like many of your posts detail how people with Asperger’s can learn to fit in the social world they live in – but how can I work to make it more comfortable and easier for them?
Okay. Here are some tips for working with someone who has Asperger’s:
1. Assume the person with Aspergers is not intending to offend you. Intention to offend is actually a complicated line of reasoning that someone with Aspergers doesn’t have.
2. Assume the person with Apergers is always telling the truth. Lying is a complicated thing to do mentally. People with Aspergers don’t do those mental gymnastics. By the same token, things that sound rude are actually just the person with Aspergers telling you something straight that other people would sugar coat. Someone with Aspergers can’t see the difference between sugar coating and lying.
3. Don’t be animated when you’re talking face to face. Mild facial expressions and monotone voice are easiest for someone with Aspergers to hear. You will think you sound like a depressive, but not to the person with Aspergers.
4. Don’t tell jokes. People with Aspergers don’t understand most jokes. They are a little like lies, actually, in that you are saying something that is not totally true or not literally true. Too hard for someone with Aspergers to figure out.
5. People with Aspergers hate to listen. So if you want to be heard, use email.
6. You can tell the person with Aspergers to shut up. It’s okay. People with Aspergers talk too much, or have bad instinct of when it’s time to stop talking. But you can just say, “Okay. I’m done talking to you. Or I’m done talking about this.” The person with Aspergers will not be offended.
7. People with Aspergers want to be nice. It’s very important to them even though you would never guess that by their actions. So if you tell the person what you want, and give specific direction, they will always try their best to do it, because they want to be nice. That said, them trying their best might look to you like not trying at all.
8. Just because someone with Aspergers says no right now doesn’t mean it’s no later. No is a defense mechanism for “I don’t like change.” You can try asking again a second time later.
I hope this helps!
Penelope
Expressionless, monotone, and depressive….this is in my wheelhouse, so that won’t be a problem. This is a great list, and gives us a lot of insight!
Thanks and my favorite is #7.
Penelope, could you elaborate a little more on #1 “,1. Assume the person with Aspergers is not intending to offend you. Intention to offend is actually a complicated line of reasoning that someone with Aspergers doesn’t have.”?
This in and of itself is complicated. My company has a very sr person who often says very offensive, very rude things (yes, he is the boss, he is sr, he has “earned it”, etc, etc), and people say he does this unintentionally. Does this excuse the hurtful or mean comments? I should hope not. Granted, I don’t know if he has Aspberger Syndrome.
I suppose my question is, how much can, or should, we excuse by a lack of intent? People with and without disabilities are capable of being hurtful, even when they don’t intend to. This can make for a pretty dysfunctional and unhappy workplace.
Sooo, how do professionals handle hurtful or rude comments, even if the offender didn’t intend to be hurtful?
Well, you can tell the person he hurt your feelings and you don’t like how he treats you. And you can see if he changes. If he doesn’t change, and you keep having your feelings hurt, then it doesn’t really matter if he has Aspergers or not: you should change jobs.
Penelope
My boss has aspergers and I’m in love with him. It doesn’t help that I’m married and he has a partner. We both have problems in our primary relationships and this is the reason he initially approached me; he was lonely and sad.
I am very direct and honest but he’s not and we have ongoing misunderstandings because of this. Also working together closely causes problems primarily in our communication styles.
Should I ask him why he hasn’t told me he has aspergers? I know for certain that he does.
What?? What are you smoking? This is pathetic, your boss is not interested in you at all. Move on.
No, you should try to figure out why you are behaving like a cheat and so unprofessionally. Worry about your own problems, instead of making them up for him.
1. Huh? Maybe he has, maybe he hasn’t, and maybe he has it and doesn’t know it. If he’s older than about 30 or so, he wouldn’t have been diagnosed as a child, and if he’s fairly successful in life it may never have come up, so he may not even know he has it, if in fact he does have it!
2. But you shouldn’t even be worrying about that aspect right now, but about your marriage and if you want to continue it or end it, and also whether you want to stay in your job under the circumstances, or to find something else.
Thank you for this! I’m the Aspie in my work place and my very accomodating, respectful superiors have asked how they should be treating me, but I never know what to say.
I worked as an engineer for a major defense contractor for ten years. I was dedicated, well-respected, and was a top-performer. I basically succeeded at whatever I did. I loved the work and found it challenging. I enjoyed the social environment of the group that I worked with as well. I had a long history of getting along with everyone very well. Everything changed for me when my manager, who was having trouble dealing with a young new hire asked me to supervise the work of this new hire, a young male. Let’s call him John. Nothing could have prepared me for what was to come. John was quirky, antisocial and confrontational. I tried my best to ignore some very negative things that John would say about my skills as an engineer and my skills as a supervisor. I patiently tutored John on things he didn’t understand, and found that John was solely motivated by learning new things. He wasn’t concerned with trying to meet deadlines and working on things I asked him to. He set out on a goal to prove himself better and smarter than me at every opportunity. He was very critical of software I designed and was extremely critical of my software in meetings. His critical marks were way off target, because my software was written in a deliberately peculiar way in order to achieve fast execution time. He was unfamiliar with the techniques I used, and was very critical of it. When I explained to him that he was actually wrong to be critical of my design in the meeting and taught him the techniques I used to increase speed, he began to become very hostile towards me. He was determined to prove me wrong at any cost, which he never could do because I was right. After I piqued his interest with software techniques he had never encountered, then started reading textbooks to satisfy his endless search for knowledge while I tried to coach him into doing actual work. Exasperated, I approached the project manager, who just wanted to get the project done and didn’t want to waste time on “personality conflicts.” After numerous other incidents, my harmonious job of 10+ years had quickly disintegrated into a toxic, hostile work place. I was angry because the project manager didn’t really care that John was criticizing me at every opportunity and wasn’t following my orders. When I finally reached my wits end because John would not cooperate with me at all, I went to Human Resources (HR) to discuss the problems I was having both with John and the resultant problems I was having with my program manager who didn’t appear concerned about this very toxic environment that was ever worsening. HR called a conflict resolution meeting, and John was just seething with venom towards me. In the meeting he was calling me a liar and incompetent and was just behaving like a lunatic. I thought at this point HR would rebuke John and take my side. Much to my surprise HR took the position that I was equally culpable for the situation. John’s many shortcomings (critical remarks, antisocial behavior, would not do what his supervisor asked of him etc.) were of little concern to HR; they were only concerned that I wasn’t getting along with John and tried to find ways of improving our relationship. After several unfruitful meetings with HR, I eventually decided that I couldn’t stand working at a company that would let an insolent employee do whatever he wanted with no consequence. The company appeared little concerned that MY feelings had been hurt. I no longer felt safe at my workplace and worried about being attacked by this person that was so openly hostile towards me. It’s hard to be called names like “liar” and “incompetent” in front of managers and HR people and have them be ok with that. All this stress led me to quit the job that I would never have imagined that I would leave. As I was in my exit interview with HR when they revealed to me that John had Asperger’s and they tried to get me to reconsider leaving. I’d never heard of the condition before and honestly thought they said “Ass Burgers” which made no sense to me. It makes me mad that someone can be a complete disruption at a work place and turn it into a toxic environment and have everyone be ok with that because they suffer from Asperger’s. I’m glad to be gone from the torments of dealing with this particular Asperger’s sufferer. I periodically check in with friends at my old company to hear what John’s latest antics are. He’s still causing lots of problems and HR is still taking the position that other engineers who are having similar struggles with John need to work out their problems. Leaving that job had a very negative impact on my career and my financial situation and it was all caused because someone with Asperger’s was getting away with behavior that would not be tolerated by anyone else.
Rachel, you should really think about how *you* want to be treated, and tell your bosses that. Penelope has good suggestions, but not all people with AS are the same or have the same needs.
For instance, I almost certainly have Asperger’s, but I don’t have a problem with small talk or animated people. You too may have ways that you differ from what Penelope described, and you might have issues she didn’t mention.
@Heather:
I’m an aspie, and this is what you should have realized: beyond trying to gang up on them (like you tried to do, in vain) the only way to deal with toxic aspies is to sink to their level, if possible. Or shoot them and bury them at a crossroads with a mouthful of garlic. Because they can scarcely be emotionally wounded or reasoned with. The situation is similar to working with a psychopath, the normal “rules of the game” no longer apply. ‘John’ was probably just trying to bully you into submission like a five-year-old kid, in blue-eyed earnest, and probably couldn’t even reason abstractly about his emotional motives for doing so. Think of people like him as the stereotypical geek male, but sliding towards truly inhuman territory and evil to boot.
His motivation was to try to steamroll others into bending to his will using brute force and feigned anger, which obviously only works in a very limited subset of situations. Speaking for myself, I can behave similarly sometimes, but I generally use more subtle methods of manipulating people without using emotions like out-arguing them or simple ingratiation combined with some situational opportunism to make myself look better – the best way to get people to do what you want is to make them want to do what you want and in order to be manipulative (which people like me sometimes need to be in order to bypass the social networks that other people have, not neccessarily to abuse or exploit them) you need to know just exactly where the limits go. And, of course, I don’t want to be a toxic asshole like this guy.
Now, if he’d had a more nuanced understanding of power and human wants he’d never have acted like that, so someone like him is obviously vulnerable to all sorts of manipulation. Personally I’d have used one of two strategies:
1. Sucker him into thinking that you actually find some of his views relevant in order to lull him into safety and view you as a “good person” in his eyes (like Sauron or Megatron) then dangle a goal in front of his head to distract and occupy him. This’d rely on being able to communicate with him and not offend him – aspies get offended by other people trying to control them or behaving in a condescending manner towards them, so you’d have needed to make it seem completely natural, i.e. not too cheerful. If he’d smelled a rat you’d have been in a worse position than before. He might have hated you because you’re a woman, don’t know how to deal with that problem really.
2. (This can’t be done in civilized society of course, but we can say that we’d be stranded on an island or in Russia or something) show yourself a ‘worthy leader’ through abusing him and generally being a total dickwad, Gordon Ramsey style – in his twisted little mind he’s probably thinking that overt might makes right. If he doesn’t recognize your strength guys like him flee like a scared cat. Unlike a psychopath he’d probably have been loyal to you after this because he doesn’t like change. I’m writing this option mostly to make you realize that poor fuckers like him is not thinking at all like a normal person – I’ve met a few of these people and they are mean as everloving fuck in a very childish manner and can’t be changed unless you’re a mad genius neurosurgeon. And they all corrode in mostly the same manner, too, men or women, so once you’ve seen one you’ve seen them all.
All in all, it makes me sad thinking that people like this are walking around – part of why I mostly hide my diagnosis professionally – and if someone else ever finds themselves in a position like this, just remember that, yes, he/she actually is deranged and evil and out to get you – your experiences are real and not imagined on your part.
@nw931w-why would an aspie care to bully anyone? Aren’t they too interested only in themselves? You are saying they care but don’t know they care?
Also-if you are an aspie, how do you know about “reasoning abstractly”?
I’m a person with Aspergers and a lot of Penelope’s points don’t apply to every person with Aspergers. In fact what she has written makes it sound as if we’re all stupid. I don’t know where she got all these assumptions but some of of them are downright incorrect….
People with Aspergers can and do lie — good luck reading their atypical body language, however, especially if this person is a bad apple and doing it on purpose. People with Aspergers can be exceptional liars or terrible liars which makes it even more difficult to tell.
People with Aspergers can understand and make jokes — sense of humor varies — it’s insinuations and double meanings that can be lost sometimes.
People with Aspergers can be intentionally mean and insulting to others — you just may not be able to tell if this is the case or if they are being brutally honest about something. We aren’t all naive innocent angels.
People with Aspergers don’t necessarily hate to listen, but they may have trouble responding on the fly. What you probably mean is they can have trouble engaging in productive conversations. Email allows us time to formulate our thoughts and respond to you the way we want to be heard. We know people can have problems understanding us, especially those of us who are aware of our conditions.
If you came up to me and purposely spoke in a monotone manner I would think there was something wrong with you, as I have probably seen you treat other people differently. Last thing you want to be is patronizing to an adult who is aware they have this condition, and have them call you out on it with their brutal honesty.
Be careful about the “no” thing. You may want to ask for a reason why they’ve come to that decision, rather than ask again. For one it’s more respectful, and secondly if you can convince someone with Aspergers that your idea is better for a logical reason there’s a good chance they will change their mind with little fuss.
And please don’t tell us to “shut up”. How rude. You write it like it’s a joke when it’s a serious problem. Yeah you can say you’re out of time or don’t want to hear anymore, but don’t literally tell us to shut up. Some of us really do have bad sense of when someone is bored, but don’t be rude about it. We do have the capacity to feel hurt, despite that you appear to think we’re robots. Chances are if we’re speaking to you at length, we like you and trust you, or we’re only trying to help. Suddenly changing the conversation or talking over us is noticed. Telling us to shut up is noted.
“Suddenly changing the conversation or talking over us is noticed”
You may notice. On a great day I may notice. On any other day if I get to talking about something that excites me I will not notice. The only way to stop me is to say something like “Stop, I do not want to talk about that any more. Let’s change the subject.” Without this segway would listen to the person who interrupted me than continue speaking on my favored subject. I have literally brought people to tears because they were to polite to say something like this. I lost friends over this. I would prefer a person use the the words stop or quiet over shut up but for me it is totally necessary.
Saying shut up is much better than letting me ramble on and on and avoiding me in the future.
To Ann:
As another person with Aspergers, I would like to thank you, Ann, for this polite yet clear and intelligent response to the author’s tips.
I could not agree more with your nuanced analysis. While I’m sure that Penelope did not mean to offend, these tips reflect some very unsubtle preconceptions about people with Aspergers, making us out to be rather simple and slightly stupid indeed.
To Penelope:
I’m surprised that someone with Aspergers like yourself would contribute to this clichéd representation of autistic individuals. After all, why would you assume that certain attitudes preferred or exhibited by you or other people with autism that you personally know, would automatically be applicable to all other people with autism to the same degree? We do not make this assumption for neurotypical people either.
And why, if you really feel the need to generalize, would you do so in a manner that is stigmatizing?
If I were an employer considering hiring someone with Aspergers and doing some research on the subject, reading these tips might put me off a bit.
I’m not attacking you, just very curious as to why you would write about us this way.
I graduated from college with a degree in English in 2008.
I started a temp job at a goverment agency. My boss loved me and even recommended me for
a position in another department. Unfortunately, since it was temporary I could not stay. Then I interviewed for an admin position at a top 100 company in Rochester, NY and I was hired over an internal employee by my manager. Unfortunately this position wasn’t paying my bills and student loans, so I obtained another position at the University of Rochester as an admin. My job was to provide administrative support to the chief physician of the department. This is probably the most miserable position I have ever had; and instead of leaving when I knew I should, I ended up being let go by my company.
After that I started a temp postion at a company I loved, and I earned some great references. I was offered an interview for a customer service position but I ended up turing it down for a temporary editorial assistant position in Baltimore, MD. I was sort of thrown into this position as the editorial assistant and coordinator were leaving in a week. After a short time, they claimed that my Excel skills were not up to their standards, and I was let go from this temporary assignment.
I recently had the same experience at another company as a temporary employee. –I’m not certain how I can have so much success (being hired over an internal, being recommended for alternate departments, generally being well liked and respected) at some companies and being denied employment at other companies as a temporary employee.
Do you have any insight into temporary employment vs.full time opportunities? At the last temporary position I had I felt that I was let go due to a personality conflict with another employee. I am an incredibly conscientious person and I honestly do not feel this was my fault. It’s hard for me not to take these things to heart as I felt that I was the one being mistreated, but because I was a temporary employee it was ultimately their opinion over mine.
Temp jobs are a great way to get a staff job.
Most temporary employes in the types of jobs you have had end up getting hired as staff employees. In the positions you are taking, people are looking at temps as possible hires. They are seeing if they like the temp.
The truth is that people do not like working with you. They don’t like your personality. They get a good chance to know you as a temp, and if you were very likable, one of these companies — probably more than one — would have hired you.
I think you have social skills issues. I think your social skills are probably not as strong as they need to be to get a good job, and that’s where you should focus your energy right now. It’s not just that you rub people the wrong way, but also you do a very poor job of reading how people are responding to you. People are courteous to you and you interpret that as them liking you. There is a big difference.
Here is a way to think about adult life: Ninety percent of jobs in the world can be done by more than a million people. So you cannot get a job because you are the most qualified for it — because there will be so many people who are equally as qualified as you. You get a job by being the person they like best. It’s a popularity contest and you need to be likable. I don’t think you are understanding this part.
Here are some posts I’ve written to get you thinking about social skills in a different way. Ultimately, though, I think you’ll probably need some sort of coaching.
http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2011/12/14/secret-social-skills-successful-people-know/
Penelope
I studied English in undergrad and religious studies in grad school. I’m making a career change from academia to finance (long story, happy to email privately, if you want).
I got a temp job as an EA at at large, prestigious financial firm, I recently was hired on a permanent capacity, and I am very happy.
Penelope said something that resonated deeply w/ me, and I think it could help you. Read! Reading will improve your social skills and ability to navigate the workforce. Read classics, and carefully consider what you like, dislike, can’t stand, love or admire about characters. Consider how other characters react to them (and in different situations). Lastly, what good and bad qualities do you see in characters that you may see in yourself?
Your English degree wasn’t for naught!
who do you recommend for this type of coaching? is it something that you do?
Yes! I do this sort of coaching. You can email me to talk about it: penelope@penelopetrunk.com.
I think Penelope’s advice is very good.
I would add a distinction though. You have good enough social skills to get hired – as you have been hired as a temp, hired over even an internal candidate etc. Your “long-term” social skills are what are letting you down. People don’t like working with you long-term. For an hour-long interview you do OK, but it’s the day-in, day-out social skills that you need to work on.
I suggest you try to get some feedback from previous employers. And don’t just dismiss the personality conflict you had with another employee. Take a hard look at what you could have done to prevent it, or at least to prevent it escalating.
I’m about two years out of college and I was wondering if you had some advice for me. What would you do if you were offered a job at the same office as your boyfriend? I interviewed at the same company, but at a different branch. It looks like I may be offered a position at his location.
It’s not ideal. If you have another option that’s almost as good, I’d probably take that option. Otherwise, just play it really cool at work.
To be honest, it hurts you a lot more than it hurts him. You get tons of attention for being a young woman — older men just like being around you. Having your boyfriend there means you’ll get a lot less of that attention which is, in the end, bad for your career.
Here’s one statistic, among a gazillion, to support what I’m saying: Uinversity of Santa Cruz ran a study about women who get mentoring. And most men who mentor women do it, in part, because there’s attraction there. I know this is not the perfect world, but it’s reality. And you’d get better mentoring if your boyfriend were not circling you at work.
Penelope
Your response is spot-on.
I agree with Penelope’s points. Although, I have a few questions:
1.) Is it possible to work in an entirely different department? At some companies, accountants and salespeople never see one another, and it is almost like they work for two different companies.
2.) Is there another location at which one of you may work? You mentioned two branches.
I am a big fan of your blog. Thanks for all that you write. I was actually pointed to your blog by my former boss (a good boss) who took a lot of interest in helping me to develop at my previous company…until about my last year there, where her focus shifted elsewhere.
That’s why I started the job I am in now–plus it got me back to the industry I want to continue building my career in, which is pharma.
Now, I am dealing with a boss who doesn’t understand what it is that her team does all day and therefore, cannot provide constructive feedback or guidance. Please note that this is not the person who I originally reported to when I began working here, but there has been quite a bit of tumult and restructuring in the last year and I have landed in her purvue. In addition to not providing direction, she also passes most of her work down to me. And it is unclear, even to people around me that at her level who have made comments to me about the situation, what she is doing on a day-to-day basis. My frustration level is at almost a 10, and I need help in managing up.
Can you point me in the direction of a blog you may have posted on this subject? Or, if there isn’t one, can you consider writing on this topic?
The first rule of thumb when you don’t like your boss is to realize that there are no bad bosses. There are just people you can deal with and people you can’t. Unless your boss is breaking the law or screaming at you at work, your boss is not bad. You are bad at dealing with your boss.
Here’s why: your job, everyone’s job, is to make their boss’s life better. That’s how work is. That’s why you were hired. A job description is a red herring – everyone’s real job is to make their boss’s life better. Whoever their boss is.
Everyone in the world, including bosses, have weaknesses. The way to make your boss’s life better is to find her weakness and help her compensate for it. (Life lesson: that’s actually how to make anyone’s life better. It’s how I’m making your life better right now 
So, your boss does not like doing the work, she likes managing the work. She is probably not good with detail, she’s good at big picture. You can make her life better by being great with detail and getting all the work done quickly so you have more time to help her. Get very good at managing your time and prioritizing and get the work done faster than she could have imagined. The tell her you have more time to help.
Here’s the great part: she will love you for this, because her weakness is actually doing the details of the work. So she will be open to you saying “this is what I’d really like to be learning right now. So could I take on project x so I can learn more?” She will say yes, because you are dedicating your days to helping her, so she will want to help you. It’s human nature.
The biggest issue is that you need to change your attitude. Either your are on your boss’s team or you leave. You will never do well in a job if you are not dedicated to making your boss’s life better. Your boss controls your work flow, so she has a lot of control over the quality of your daily life. Either get on her good side or change jobs.
But warning: the people who are most successful at work are able to get on the good side of anyone by having a deep understanding of a wide range of personalities. This understanding allows you to show kindness and empathy in an authentic way even to the most low-functioning of bosses
Here’s a post on the topic:
http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2004/07/22/there-are-no-bad-bosses/
Penelope
This is some of your best advice. I would add that managing a difficult boss successfully can elevate your corporate value significantly. My current EVP boss is loved by our international board, but disrespected by all the executives in our US office. My success in managing up, and compensating for his weakness (in this case due diligence, forecasting and considering “worst case scenarios in his business plans), has earned me a high degree of respect from our executives and has resulted in them requesting my help on a number of high profile projects. I’ve managed to make my boss look good while making myself a valued business leader.
If other executives see you doing work they believe your boss should do that only makes you look great. This is particularly true if you do that work with a positive attitude. When executives compliment me on my ability to manage my boss I just smile and say it’s all “part of the adventure.” I’ve found that phrase is great for acknowledging what you are doing without a hint of complaint.
I just pressed the like button … even though you can’t see it.
This is great advice — and perspective — and I know it’s true from my own experience. However, I had a work situation like this a few years ago and when I (instinctively, intuitively) did as you recommend, she became threatened and worried that I was being perceived/groomed as her replacement. Even though I truly had no interest in her job, and was crystal-clear with her on this point, she still made my life hell until I finally left.
It was a smallish-to-medium-sized company, so fairly easy for everyone to see other people’s strengths & weaknesses. Do you have any advice for how to manage a jealous/threatened boss? Or maybe that’s a whole other Mailbag question . . .
Thanks, Penelope. Good news, I do make my boss’ life easier and although I shared with you that my frustration was at a 10–to her and the people around me, I continue to be a happy worker bee. She does love me, and she routinely highlights my going above and beyond to other members of my team (I assume, in hopes that they will do the same). The problem still remains though that when I have expressed a desire to grow, learn and work on X project as you suggested–she tells me I am too busy for that. So, while I agre with your sentiment that it is my job to make my boss look good (and I do a damn good job of that), it doesn’t appear to be getting me anywhere. Thanks for the advice!
Okay. That’s great that your boss is liking the work you do for her!
So as long as she’s happy, you can go to someone else in the organization and ask to be on projects that will help you. You can say you have extra time and you will stay late or whatever – which you can only say in the office if your boss is very happy with you.
And don’t just think about projects that will help you grow, but also people. If you find someone at the office who is really good at mentoring people and helping them grow, you can offer to do anything for that person, just to spend time with him or her so that they can help you move yourself to a good spot for you.
Penelope
Thanks, Penelope. I do really appreciate the advice. And since I have been a fan for so long I am also psyched you responded to me! (I know, I’m a bit of a dork). Have a great weekend!
Dear Penelope, your advice is right on the money, my boss is as you described he is good at the big picture , not so much into details, our work actually compliments each other as I am a detail orientated person.
Around six months ago he started giving me tasks without any brief on how he. Wants them done, reports , presentations for the senior management etc, till now he is very happy with everything I have prepared for him even down to doing the regional analysis for the P&L …..
I know that these tasks are not within my job description and I also know some of the things he asks me to do are because he does not know how to do himself.
I took these tasks on as a challenge to myself in addition to my regular responsibilities , I have never asked for anything in return, although I made it clear to him from our first meeting that I am looking for my career development and the next step….
I recently discovered that he has been highlighting my abilities to the senior management an next week I have an interview with a couple of the companies directors for a new regional position where the company believe my talents could be better utilized….
My belief is that if you make yourself indispensable you will get the recognition and good things will come. So far it has worked for me.
I was recently reading your interview advice for a phone interview I had for a teaching position at an elementary school in Michigan. Apparently I did really well and the interviewer subtly indicated that I would be invited to an in-person interview, which is really great. The only problem I have is that I wear a veil over my face, I’m Muslim. I was reading your advice on acing interviews and I’m not sure how to increase my likability factor, or to make myself more like the interviewers. Short of taking off the veil, do you have any ideas for how I can increase my likability and still get the job with the veil on?
Well, this is a great reason why people would say wearing a veil holds women back – because its so difficult to connect with people outside your home.
People connect with faces. Your ability to support yoursel depends on being to connect with people outside your home. Honestly, I dont know how you would get a job wearing a veil. Because you can’t compete with people who can use a much wider range of social cues to do their job well.
Not that you asked, but maybe a good compromise is covering everything but your face. In that case, I think you’d do fine on the workplace.
And, I’m wondering, what do you think about this reply? You must have done way more thinking on this topic than i have. I am curious.
Penelope
I appreciate your response, Penelope. Thank you.
At first I was frustrated because it doesn’t help me at all. I understand why you’ve said it and I acknowledge that it’s true but, I’m not satisfied with my two options being that I either sit home or take off my veil.
I’ve interviewed successfully for positions before, but the stakes are higher this time. The interviewer said over 2,000 people have applied but that I’m looking pretty good when compared to the competition. I am quite charismatic and easy to talk to, but I have an anxiety disorder which usually dominates the first few meetings with people that I’m intimidated by. I’ll either have to somehow meet with the principal before the actual interview (that might show I’m really interested but hopefully not over-eager) or consider wearing a half-veil that shows my eyebrows and forehead (in the hopes that my enthusiasm will somehow seep through my eyebrows) in addition to my eyes.
The only thing worse than not getting the position would be to not interview for it.
A few things here.
1.) It is my understanding that Muslim women are not obligated to cover their faces. That is a custom followed by some branches but not a law. (Just as Orthodox Jewish women are not obligated by Jewish law to wear wigs, they need only cover their hair.)
2.) I studied Orthodox Judaism for my graduate degree. It is very common for Orthodox men to get special permission to remove their kippah at work. The reason behind this halachic (Jewish law) ruling is that one cannot serve God without having a roof over their head and food. If you can’t work, you can’t provide those things for yourself.
3.) Is there a spiritual advisor with whom you could speak about this? Maybe you can get an exception for the interview.
4.) Ms. Trunk touches upon mroe esoteric understandings of “the face” that have been addressed by Emanuel Levinas. The face is what makes us human and allows others to see us to see the humanity in others (Buber’s “thou”). How do you want to be seen?
On a related note, I found this article in Marie Claire http://www.marieclaire.com/career-money/jobs/ethnicity-in-the-workplace
Maybe it will shed some light on your situation?
Also, my previous post have suggested that I think that Orthodox Judaism’s laws are “the same” as your religion’s- certainly not the case! Just trying to draw some comparisons and hopefully give a new angle on your conundrum. Keep us posted as the interview process goes along!
Choosing a mainstream occupation but being a part of a clique is the real problem here. The lady is hoping that the schools will look past the veil – they might, but the parents won’t. And while it is important for school kids to learn and understand diversity, it is more important for them to learn social cues at their age.
Suppose instead of Michigan you were living in France. What would you do then? You would have to either do away with the face veil or be at home. You would have to make a choice. So why the qualms here? Working moms give up their careers to stay with their kids- its discriminatory, but they are clear on what’s important to them. And that’s pretty much what you need to be clear on.
FYI- I’m a Muslim woman living in Pakistan, and I do not wear or endorse the face veil or head scarf.
This is a great discussion! I am a converted Muslim and cover my head. I would like to tell a bit of my story to address this topic.
I live in Pakistan where many people do (and many people dont, like Sadya). I dont stand out here because I am doing what many others are doing. Islam asks women to be conservative. It actually does not ask us to cover our faces anywhere in the Quran. The trouble is, when I go to Australia (my home country), if I wear a scarf I am stared at because I look so different, and people have often negative ideas about Muslims. To me this is not what Islam is about… it is not about me being stared at. In fact it is quite the opposite. It asks me to protect my modesty. Now if everyone i walk past is staring at me, that is not protecting my modesty- right?
My solution is to wear a hat that covers all my hair… luckily these are pretty fashionable these days and there are plenty of them around. I also wear a scarf around my neck and loose clothes. This way I am modest, can still be stylish, and not attract any attention. I am not a walking billboard for Islam and I dont need to be. My Islam is on the inside and is between me and God. It has nothing to do with the other people around me – they dont need to know if I am a muslim or not.
I guess what I am saying is that as muslims, it is important that we dont lose sight of the reason we are covering ourselves in the first place. Dont you think?
Danielle, I just had to respond to your comment here. I too am a muslim, and I live in Australia. I don’t wear a veil/hijab because of the reasons you said – modesty is about people ignoring you as a sex object and treating you as a person, not having people stare at you.
I guess we’re getting a bit off-topic here, but it’s nice to talk with careeristic muslim women
As for the OP, I do agree that parents may be a bit of an issue. I know there are sects where women cover their faces, and I suppose that when you have to interact with people it will always be an issue (how much depends on who you’re interacting with).
Very happy to hear from you as well! I am also Australian and would love to stay in contact if you would like. My email is danielle@writeon-it.com.
I am so excited that this conversation is going on here. I just want to say thank you to you guys. This is one of my all-time favorite career discussions on my site. I have learned so much about the world, and the discussion will help other women to figure out how they want to assert themselves in the world.
So, this is just me saying thank you.
Penelope
@ Danielle, great points! It is about each of our personal relationships with God and living a life that honors God and our fellow humans. When your observance impedes that- its time to, at very least, start questioning some things.
You’re interviewing for a position with 2,000 other applicants? Well god job getting to the interview! I guess I’m wondering: is there a way to pursue a position in your profession that isn’t listed publicly? By building a network, you can get the inside track for a job before the teeming hoardes know about it, and it might render the question of the veil less critical either way.
I am curious what happened with you interview. Also, with all due respect, I wonder if you are using the veil to shield the anxiety disorder, which you mentioned. Perhaps you can get some counseling to ease out of your anxiety and then you don’t have to rely on the veil, which others have mentioned are not required in Islam- especially in Michigan. Good luck.
In every job I’ve had, after a brief initial buzz (maybe two weeks) I feel despondently bored. This will happen when the role is well suited to my ENFJ personality, if I’m good at the job or even when I’ve initially felt really passionate about the role (like working for a children’s charity). And so I leave with this sense of incompleteness. I’m 33 and I’m torn between pushing through and finding that one amazing something or accepting that, as my father says, I’m just scared of hard work.
You are not scared if hard work. No one is. Its just a line your dad says to people to hurt them.
You sound depressed to me. For one thing, it’s not right that your dad’s criticism holds so much sway over you at your age — you are too old for that. Also, it seems not right that you have jobs that are ostensibly fine for you and then you don’t like them. It sounds like the problem is not the job.
I think if you dealt with your depression then the jobs would feel fine to you. Have you been to therapy before? You should try it. It will create some stability in both your work life and your self-image.
Penelope
Thanks for your response, what a brilliant surprise. I’m not sure why it’s a surprise because you say that you respond to people all the time; thank you for showing me that people often do what they say.
I actually started therapy about five months ago. I started due to a hot combo of poor self image, social anxiety and marital problems but for some reason I managed to siphon off work and my career as something that shouldn’t/couldn’t be affected by the negative feelings I was having.
I see now that cannot be the case, so hopefully I’m on the right road.
Thanks again.
Fellow ENFJ here!! Two things:
1.) We are *sensitive*. We love our work, and take usually personally when things go poorly (or really well).
2.) Don’t take career advice from parents (I may have read that on this blog?). Our parents usually want us to be honest (almost to a fault), humble, helpful and willing to work from the ground up. In the workplace you need to be competent, assertive and selective in the projects you take.
I reccommend reading “Do What You Are” and “Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office (its better than the title suggests).
As for therapy, I have been doing EFT for a few years, and it has helped me overcome stressful/unpleasant/hurtful situations that I tend to hold onto. I’d be curious to hear Ms. Trunk’s thoughts on EFT.
Hi everyone,
I have the same problem. I start a new job, I learn the job, I am bored with the job. Unfortunately, this happens within MONTHS and not within years. I make good money, have good co-workers, a nice 10-minute commute (walking), good benefits, everything you could ask for. But the work load is too low, I don’t get more work even if I ask for it. I started taking a class after work so I can keep busy with doing the homework for it during work. I write on my book during work. I write for my blog during work. But all I want is a high-power job, that’s well-respected, keeping me really busy and presenting me with challenges regularly. I do want job security, though. I am stuck somehow I feel. Now I am 30 and I want to kick some a$$ before I have kids. But I don’t want to apply to the next job and then hit the same boredom after some months of learning and adapting again.
What should I do?
I think if you are 30 and you have not found a job that you like, then there is a distinct possibility that the high-paying jobs are not jobs that would be fulfilling to you. Boredom usually comes from someone who is doing the wrong thing for them. People talk all the time about how it’s okay for women to be bored taking care of kids. But it’s also okay for women to be bored in the workplace.
It’s unfortunate that when we are growing up, everyone tells us about how smart we are and how we can do anything, but there is no discussion of what if the workplace doesn’t cater to who you are??? I mean, the workplace caters to a very narrow group of people who can have high output in a business setting.
There are people who are just good at being at home taking care of a family. Look at your Myers Briggs score. I bet you score in that range. I think you need to embrace who you are – whoever you are. And you don’t sound open to a wide range – - only a very small group of people can be high-earning.
Also, just mentioning, you are thirty. And if you have a personality type that will enjoy having kids and taking care of them, it’s time to do that, not worry about your career. It’s very hard to build a career and have young kids at the same time. You probably need to pick one at this stage of your life.
Penelope
Thanks for your advice, Penelope. I did the Meyer Briggs a couple of months ago and I am an ESTJ type, with a strong peak in judging. Is that a nurturing type?
Here’s a link to a description of ESTJ traits.
http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ESTJ_car.html
The first thing about ESTJs is that they are most fulfilled in the role of enforcers. People who like order and like to maintain order. These people are not highly paid in our culture. (Teachers, policemen, administrators). So the types of jobs that are highly paid – sales, business development, CEOs — have very little structure around them, and the highest paid of that group are rule breakers, and those jobs would drive you crazy.
The other thing is that ESTJs are big on commitment and social order. Which means an ESTJ feels very good making sure things are done right in a family setting.
So, the answer is that you would, indeed be happy being at home and making a family run smoothly and orderly. Also, you are not likely to ever earn that big paycheck that you are holding out for in the workplace. So you should stop putting your energy toward that. It’s draining and demoralizing to you.
Penelope
“I think if you are 30 and you have not found a job that you like, then there is a distinct possibility that the high-paying jobs are not jobs that would be fulfilling to you. ” <– That is a really interesting comment.
I recently left academia for the higher-paying field of finance. Currently, I am an EA making about 3x what most grad students make (and more than some professors). I ended up learning that I actually do value the money and the freedom that comes with it.
I'm working towards a career in investor relations or client services in this industry which will give me the free time time and the financial freedom I need.
Long story short- it was difficult, yet liberating to admit to myself that I like money and the freedom and security that goes along with it.
Just to throw this out there, but what if you’re one of those types who would be good staying home, but you’re single or you’re partnered up/married but don’t want children? It seems there’s more acceptance out there for a person to stay home if they are a parent, but not if they don’t have children. What about the stay at home spouse? If one person makes enough money to cover expenses and the other is unhappy/unsuited for the job they have it seems that there isn’t much support for the person to quit to find out what they really like. They’re looked at as lazy, or mooching off the spouse with the full time job even it it’s what they discussed and agreed on. As for the single person what if they would like to move around to try different things, but are bound by finances, even if they aren’t living above their means? Again just tossing those questions out there out of curiosity.
Responding to JE: If you know you want to stay home and take care of a family, then your focus should be finding a mate. If you do not want to stay home and take care of a family, then you should focus on continuing to try stuff out to figure out what you want to do outside the home.
It doesn’t take a lot of money to test out a lot of different jobs, because you earn money in each job you try. And it doesn’t take a lot of money to have a job that you don’t particularly like but focus on finding a mate.
Penelope
“Long story short- it was difficult, yet liberating to admit to myself that I like money and the freedom and security that goes along with it.”
This is how I feel right now. I mean, I still haven’t completely accepted, but I have to. I studied a lot to become a ‘save the world’ person. Go to humanities and save people. However, after working for free for non profits that only hires one people in 100 I realized that need security and stability. That I rather have a job that doesn’t really add anything to society, but have good friends and be able to travel and live reasonably. I keep beating myself about it, but I have to accept otherwise I’ll always live stressed out about ethg.
I am trying to use my financially save, but boring job to try new things on the side. Kids are not in the picture, maybe in 2 years or so. I am taking Accounting classes, write on my own book, will be freelancing for a website project and will take some Graphic Design classes soon. Right now I work as an Advisor at a graduate school and I am bored out of my mind. Being bored all the time is so depressing, but I guess if I haven’t figured out my dream job by now, as Penelope states, work might not be my place after all. I will continue to try new things and see where it takes me.
Penelope Trunk founded three startups, including Brazen Careerist. Her career advice runs in 200 newspapers. Inc. Magazine called her "the world's most influential guidance counselor." More»
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Penelope Trunk 11:43 pm on December 10, 2012 Permalink |
Just start looking for another job, and don’t worry about the last boss not liking you.
Most people will not ask to call your last job as a reference. If someone asks for a reference, just give them the name of someone else. It’s okay. Plenty of people can’t use their last job as a reference. Talk about your last job like it was great, and you were great at it,
and say you left because you needed a break – which is true, you did need a break. Say now you’re ready to go back to work and you’re excited to do a good job again.
Don’t be hesitant about saying that you were a great performer at the last job. That’s what’ll get you another job. It doesn’t matter if your last boss thought you were a top performer or not. It matters what you say you were. It’s subjective.
Penelope
downfromtheledge 7:39 am on December 11, 2012 Permalink |
I feel your pain. I came close to committing suicide as a result of harrassment from a boss. When I quit, my next 4 years consisted of being suicidal and unemployed. So right now I have to count myself lucky that I am only *underemployed* and making half of what I am worth, because not having references (and now a spotty employment record) has f*cked me over.
Nearly every employment application I have filled out DOES require the name of your previous boss, or requires you to list 3 supervisory references – not just colleagues – and you can’t just leave a required field empty. Or it can be very conspicuous to leave off….and there are certain fields like education where they are just going to call your previous principal, and there’s no hiding who it was.
This is a very real employment barrier that can’t just be talked away with a positive attitude, and not everyone is a great bullshitter who can lie their way through an interview. I had my most confident interview ever 2 weeks ago for a job I am more than qualified for…answered all the tough questions about my gaps in employment…doesn’t seem to matter what explanation I give, because I have tried them all. To no avail.
Morgan 3:35 pm on December 11, 2012 Permalink |
Employees put way too much weight on references. Most companies won’t even give out a reference, even if you’ve specifically given permission – there is way too much liability. Future employers may call to verify employment, but that’s about the extent of it.
Jen 11:07 am on December 12, 2012 Permalink |
Morgan is right. The last several companies I’ve worked for had a policy of only providing confirmation of dates of employment and nothing else for past employees. They would provide salary confirmation only if the employee requested it. The easiest way to handle this is to list the general number for HR at the employer. They will call and get the basic verification that way. If asked directly about your previous supervisor just state that you haven’t kept in touch.
WorkinProgress 10:36 am on January 8, 2013 Permalink |
I had this experience with my last job. My boss and I were like oil and vingar. I asked a colleague to please be a reference for me. I basically said, “I know BOSS and I didn’t always see eye-to-eye. Would you be able to talk about some projects we did together, my personality and work ethic?”
My colleauge left me a very kind voicemail that said, “No problem about BOSS. I’m happy to be a reference.”
Sometimes honesty really is the best policy.