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  • Mailbag 10:40 am on May 16, 2013 Permalink | Reply  

    Dealing with an indecisive boss 

    So far my new job is going really well. I have days when I’m so engrossed in what I’m doing that I don’t even notice the hours ticking by. It’s a much better fit than my last position.

    Anyway, I have a question for you. What’s the best way to handle an indecisive boss? I am very good at making decisions, and I don’t have any experience working with somebody who is so bad at it.  In addition, I have limited patience for people who constantly put off making decisions or change their minds 5 million times. Especially when it messes with my deadlines. At the same time, I’m new to this company and I don’t want to come across as bossy or bitchy. Do you have any ideas for ways I can speed up the process without stepping on any toes?

     

    • Penelope Trunk 10:40 am on May 16, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      Here are some ways to deal with someone who can’t make a decision:

      1. Get out of the middle. Don’t feel responsible for missing deadlines when it’s not something you can control. You probably see early-on that you are going to miss the deadline because of your boss, so you can warn your boss of the implications of missing the deadline, and you can warn the stakeholder that your boss is not making a decision and will miss the deadline. Then your boss and the stakeholder can each make decisions about what to do about the missed deadline instead of you taking that responsibility.

      2. Send act now or never emails. You can send an email saying that you need a decision on x and if you do not receive a decision by that point, you will make it yourself. And then follow through with that. Give your boss one reminder. If you boss does not make a decision you don’t need to announce that you made the decision. Just make it and move on. Your boss will realize it sooner than later and you might find that your boss is relieved to be able to take no action and still have the project progress.

      3. Say no to second-guessing. You can simply say that it is too late to change their mind on the last decision because the project is moving forward. Tell your boss that a change at this point would kill everyone’s motivation to do the project well, and the boss will get bad results from poorly motivated performances. Don’t give your boss a chance. Say that the benefits of changing now do not outweigh the costs of killing morale so the answer is no.

      4. Ask for fewer decisions. There are probably a lot of time when you can see what the right answer is way before your boss can. So just do that. When your boss asks why you did it, don’t explain it as a decision. Explain it as the logical next step, so you took it because you are a logical person. You can’t do this every time, but you can do it a lot, and then your boss will have fewer decisions to make so more will actually get made.

      5. Understand your boss better. Your boss is not making decisions because your boss feels overwhelmed or incapable or scared. You should try to understand which of these three feelings is the root cause of indecision. Then you can help your boss come to a decision by addressing the probably irrational fear of choosing. Compassion will get you far in this situation.

      Good luck!

      Penelope

    • Marie (INFP) 3:17 pm on May 17, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      One thing I would add that has helped me immensely is figuring out that my indecisive boss is an ENFJ. This means that he makes decisions by talking it out which is different process for an INFP. Usually by the time I come to him expecting a decision, I’ve already mulled it over in my head so I’m just asking for a confirmation of the decision I’ve already made and can get impatient when I don’t get it. So what I’ve learned is to help him talk through it when I come looking for a decision.

      I’ll ask questions like: What drawbacks do you see in doing this? What do you think are the positives of this step? And then we arrive at the moment where I have a better sense of what he wants to do and conclude with “I agree with you Larry, a good compromise here is to test this product in x market before rolling it out in the bigger y market. Alright, I’ll let marketing know.”

      This also has the added advantage of developing a certain intimacy with your boss where they begin to perceive you as the only person who understands them and helps them think clearly. Unlike everyone else who are exasperated by him.

    • Cathy Goodwin 8:41 am on May 22, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      Marie has a great point. Sometimes a boss who seems indecisive just has a different operating style. Marie is smart to avoid pinning negative labels on her boss, but instead to figure out how to work with his style.

      I just question the need for the Myers-Briggs labels. Does she know her boss is an ENFJ? Can’t she just figure out that he likes to talk things through?

      Many of my successful clients know about to “read” bosses, colleagues and subordinates just by observing and asking questions. Some people like to get emails while others prefer phones or even face to face conversations.

  • Mailbag 1:19 pm on May 6, 2013 Permalink | Reply  

    Will time off for travel hurt my career 

    I am a regular reader of your blog and a huge fan of your work.  I started following it in 2007. I was drawn to it because I was/am that classic twenty-something: lost.  I immediately found my post-undergrad job to be unsatisfying and boring.  I started in corporate finance.  I have since upgraded to an analyst position in asset valuation at a financial services firm.  I have been here three years and although I am not miserable, I daily yearn for something more.

    I am in the process of researching NGO’s in Nepal.  I want to move there for 2-3 months to work in women’s empowerment.  I want to volunteer in Nepal because (a) I have spent the majority of the last five years making money for myself and my employers, not contributing much to humanity, (b) I want to immerse myself into a new culture and I find the Nepalese culture intriguing and (c) I want a hub to explore Asia (primarily after my commitment is fufilled in Nepal).  I have been to Asia twice and traveled throughout Europe in college so I am very confident in my traveling skills.

    My biggest hesitation here has probably crossed your mind: what will I do upon my return?  I don’t know.  I am hoping that while abroad, I will be presented with new opportunities that will lead to my next step or, at the very least, my time overseas will shed some light on my next career move.  I am fairly certain that I do not want to stay in finance and I do not want to come back to Chicago, which is where I’ve lived for nearly five years.  One of my inclinations, among many, is to pursue a career in writing, using my material from a blog that I will keep while in Nepal and afterward.  My priorities of traveling and exploring will come second to writing my blog to ensure that I have a product when I return to the US (if I return).

    What are your thoughts? Am I completely insane to pick up and leave (with approximately $10K in the bank) after building so much career equity in the past five years?  I am so lost and without a clear direction on my next “job” and I feel drawn to do something drastic and unconventional like this.

     

    • Penelope Trunk 1:20 pm on May 6, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      It’s fine to take an adventure to Nepal. It will not help you get a job. And it might hurt you.

      Here are some things for you to consider:

      1. Travel writing is more competitive than any other kind of writing. You can’t jump start things by going to Nepal. It’s too competitive.

      2. You need to tell a story about yourself. The story of I tried finance and didn’t like it is fine. The story of I tried finance and didn’t like it and took a break from the workforce is not as strong. People like persistence. It’s one thing to not like something and try something else. It’s another thing to run away. Which is what going to Nepal is.

      3. You will have a lot more options when you come home if you save your money to help get you through a long job hunt. If you come home from Nepal with no money you’ll have to take any job you can get. If you don’t go to Nepal you can afford to wait to get a better job.

      Sometimes travel is eye-opening, and sometimes it’s a merely escape from the problems one has at home. Also, at some points in life, travel is challenging and there’s a lot to learn about having to fend for oneself in another country. At this point in your life, though, you have traveled and you know how to do it. So you will probably learn more by forcing yourself to take new jobs and try new things to figure out where you fit in the world.

      Penelope

    • Morgan 3:51 pm on May 6, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      If you want to travel, travel; the rest of your life will work itself out. You can sell any experience as relevant to a career with the right diction. But if you truly feel drawn to working on women’s empowerment, why wouldn’t you make that career shift now? Why limit yourself to a few months if you feel it’s your calling? Penelope is spot on: it sounds more like you want an escape from your current life and you’re trying to sell it as a move towards altruism. Why not volunteer in your own town while looking for a new job and see if that scratches the itch?

    • Ru 6:39 pm on May 6, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      Travelling seems like the easy way out. Ask yourself if its a break/long vacation you need or a permanent change. If you are gonna up and go, i suggest take a community travel writing class before leaving. Not because you need someone to teach you how to write but to force yourself a carved out time and be accountable for the quality of your writing in a peer assessment setting.

      I did a course like that and realised how hard it was. Imagine being in a foriegn country and have to write about woman empowerment in nepal, how much do you know about the subject to write about it in a meaningful way to your audience. Whats your angle on that? My instructor would ask us refine our narrative view constantl.

      If you really want an extended time off, ask for a sabbatical. A two month sabbatical guarantees a job to return to at least and if you end up with a better gig, you can quit :)

    • Becky Castle Miller 2:56 am on May 7, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      Why make it a short-term experiment? Why not make it a semi-permanent relocation? If you know you want to live in Asia, find a job with an NGO there that will take care of your immigration issues and get you a residence permit. Plan to live overseas for 5 years instead of 3 months. You’ll probably have to make a drastic downshift in your standard of living, but the daily adventures you’d have, and the meaningful work you would do, would probably make up for it.

      Another option would be taking a job teaching English in somewhere like Japan for a year or two. If you still have student loans, loan repayment is part of some of those programs.

      If you really want to live in Asia, I think that’s fantastic. Just make it a long-term job shift and become an expat, rather than being a tourist for a few months and coming back to the US for a job search. (And I say all this as someone who moved overseas from the US almost a year ago and is overall enjoying the expat life–it has challenges, but it’s amazing.)

    • katie 2:13 pm on May 7, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I’ll just disagree with Penelope to say that it will help you find a job, IF you want to find one in the development sector in Nepal. With a finance background, you have great chances of switching to a microfinance NGO for example, working for World Bank, etc etc– if you are interested in that kind of work. With a couple years of field experience you can then move back to the US to get a job back in headquarters. Travel writing might be a stretch but depending on your networking skills and writing talent, you might be able to start freelancing, writing about economic and political issues, etc. For advice about careers in the development sector I recommend Alanna Shaikh’s blog, Blood and Milk (google it and click over to the career advice section). I moved to Bosnia to volunteer and ended up freelancing, working for a TV station and now in development.

    • Angie 11:58 am on May 8, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I have always had similar ideas about quitting my job and traveling. In fact, for the first few years after college, I worked temp jobs specifically so that I could travel for a month or two between them. One such trip was a 6-week stay in Geneva to volunteer with an NGO. I enjoyed the stay and learned a lot—including that I would never, ever want to work full-time with that particular NGO because they were doing nothing. I had one job other job offer while there, but because I wasn’t specialized, the only way that they could have got work papers for me was to set the wage so low that no Swiss person would take the job. I didn’t see how I would survive on such wage, so I ended up coming back to the States to find work.

      And I want to write also. But I’ve realized that my fantasies about dropping everything to travel and write have more to do with the utter boredom of my daily life than anything else. Self-examination has also shown me that the core of my desire to write is that I love to learn, and I love to share what I learn with others. I can do that right where I am by starting a blog. And, to satisfy the need for novelty, I’m trying out local places that I haven’t been to yet and taking day or weekend trips in the state where I live. Also, I’m taking myself on a vacation abroad this year, and I negotiated to work remotely for a month so that I can have an extended visit with family who live far away. It’s less dramatic than moving to another country, but these steps will ultimately get me closer to my ideal life, whereas I’m not really sure that my fantasy of quitting everything, housesitting in Europe, and writing full time will get me anywhere but broke (it still sounds awesome, though, right?).

      All this to say that It would be really worthwhile to examine what unfulfilled personal needs are driving you toward such a move. There may be other ways you can meet those needs.

      Also, I work in publishing and cannot emphasize enough that for most writers, it takes MUCH longer than most people expect to earn money from writing, and even longer to get to a point where you’re actually supporting yourself from writing. And Penelope’s right that travel writing is very competitive and hard to get in to.

      • Angie 12:00 pm on May 8, 2013 Permalink | Reply

        Not that you shouldn’t try writing if you want to! I’m just saying, be prepared for it to take a while before you earn real money.

    • Jen 9:30 am on May 9, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      Have you considered asking your employer for permission to take a sabbatical? Both my husband and I work at big blue chip companies in, as Penelope calls them, “big jobs” and our employers were very receptive to us taking 2 months off unpaid to travel. You might get even more support that we did because you would be leaving for volunteer work. I would see if you could take an extended vacation to guarantee that you have a job when you get back. While you are away, you can start mapping out where you want to take your career next, and then when you get back, with the comfort of a salary, you can start figuring out how to execute a plan.

    • Alexis 12:22 pm on May 9, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      Haha I just woke up and my sleepy brain read this as, “Will time travel hurt my career “. LOL

    • channa 4:38 pm on May 10, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I left a boring career to live in Vietnam for a year, without a specific plan for what to do there. While I was there I worked on business school applications (in addition to freelance paid work to support myself and some volunteer work) and when I returned I attended a top-5 business school. Here is how this experience impacted my career:

      Made me more interesting to other people (I have good stories.)
      Made me more confident in cross-cultural situations and better at understanding accents.
      Gave me credibility as a candidate to work in other countries (I’ve since worked in 5 others.)
      Made me more interesting to graduate schools (I assume.)

      Here is how it didn’t:

      Open a career in UN / NGO / foreign development / microfinance. Just showing up for a few months is not a qualification. And being introduced to those lifestyles and the work they do, made me realize I’d rather travel for fun, work for money and support free trade and immigration.
      Improve my resume. Other than one volunteer line, I leave that year off my resume.
      Teach me a second language. Languages are HARD.
      Launch my travel writing career. hahahaha

      So anyway, I loved the experience, wouldn’t trade it for anything and wasn’t worried about the impact on my career. If you are worried about your career then you should solve that problem then figure out how travel fits into your new plan.

    • Elizabeth 11:18 pm on May 13, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      Good question! A(n online) friend runs the site http://meetplango.com/ They have meetup events for people who – like you – are looking to switch up their careers, and use travel as a way to find direction. It’s a common desire! What some may seem as escapism can also be a need to shift life and career around. I say this as someone who left the US ten years ago for Asia on a one-way ticket…

    • Jen 9:34 am on May 16, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      Have you considered working while you travel? If not for you current company, then perhaps as a consultant? It can provide career continuity, and by working for yourself you’ll learn a wide variety of things that will influence your career decisions when/if you return to the workforce full-time.

  • Mailbag 5:45 pm on April 30, 2013 Permalink | Reply  

    Showing multiple careers on LinkedIn 

    I went to art school and have been working in the creative industry for about five years now. I am going back to school this Fall for nursing though because I didn’t want to purely do art for the rest of my life. I see myself has having dual careers, nursing as the main one (day job) and art as the freelance one.

    My question is about my LinkedIn profile!  Should I make my LinkedIn profile for nursing only? Art jobs boil down to the portfolio, so I think having a separate online presence will be enough for freelance. Yes, I think I answered my own question. I don’t think I should mix the two because it will confuse nurse recruiters.

     

    • Penelope Trunk 5:46 pm on April 30, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      You’re right – you answered your own question! A good rule of thumb for people who have two, distinctly different careers is to put the on on LInkedIn that is mostly highly recruiter. There are a some careers that don’t involve recruiters – art and farming come to mind. In those cases sometimes people want to find you online, but they know there are better ways than LinkedIn.

      Some people have many different things they’ve done in their career and that generally looks bad on LinkedIn, because LinkedIn favors a more linear career path — most of the profile tools on LinkedIn are oriented to a linear progression. If you can tie your various careers into one cohesive story at the top of your profile, that’s a great idea and then it gives recruiters a way to understand where you fit.

      The bottom line is that LinkedIn is best used for showing recruiters what you do best. Recruiters use LinkedIn obsessively to find exact matches for jobs they are trying to fill. If you do not say clearly what you are an exact match for on LinkedIn, then you end up being an exact match for nothing.

      Of course, it’s not always easy to market yourself so clearly. Often someone who rewrites resumes can help you with something like that as well– it’s a process of seeing yourself differently.

      Penelope

  • Mailbag 6:34 pm on April 16, 2013 Permalink | Reply  

    How to recover from a never-ending childhood 

    I’ve been reading your blog, and you are right, self-pity gets me nowhere. Yet I have anxiety because I have forgiven myself of my past, yet I cannot forget as the choices haunt my life.

    1) I am 40 in Dec.
    2) I live with my mother who exasperates me endlessly. I am the eternal teenager and now, in order to just avoid conflict, I have accepted my role as one.
    3) I have a daughter in college for nursing. My other is 16, goes to high school, and is working at a tea shop. She lives with me and my mom.
    4) I’ve been in poverty.
    5) I’m in school, getting an Associate’s Degree in Science, but I only have 8 credits.
    6) I’m unemployed–I worked 10 years as a Montessori instructional assistant–stayed too long because I knew I was in for another dead end job.
    7)I have great anxiety because I feel like a bum with my mom. I’ve never been financially independent. So now that creates the low self esteem and confidence.

    I know you can’t tell me what to do. I had a child at 19 and another at 22. So I’ve never really known myself. Just that I am a very kind person. After ten years and those last two years in that horrible job, I don’t want another dead-end job. I’ve thought about a business. I don’t know what —I’ve babysat and cleaned in my life and that is not my idea of a fulfilling job. I can’t sew. I can barely cook. I don’t have musical talent. And people have always run me so running a business?? Not to mention, how would I start a business on food stamps and school loans? I can barely afford gas for school. All excuses I suspect.

    I know all you probably see is negativity, yet these are the realistic facts. I’m stuck. And I feel screwed and desperate. Like I should go to work at the Dollar Store or McDonald’s for less than what I had made at years of the other dead end job.

    Enough of a sorrow email, I have just felt compelled to write. Cause I’m a mom. And I feel pathetic with my stance and that I have failed my children.

     

    • Penelope Trunk 6:35 pm on April 16, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      You did a good job with your daughters. Now you have to do a good job with yourself. You need counseling. You need to look at yourself differently. I do not think you need school or moving out of your mom’s house as much as you need counseling.

      If you get a job at Starbucks or McDonald’s you will get good health insurance. Use the health insurance to do intensive counseling, for free. I mean, insurance will pay for it.

      Any job you get before you do this counseling will be a dead-end job. But you are not at a dead-end – in any job — if you are getting counseling.

      You have enormous self-esteem issues, probably coming from some sort of family issue at an early age. You have to figure those out in order to move on. You don’t sound pathetic. You sound very able to help yourself. But you have to take action to do that.

      When you do make the decision to go back to school or not go back to school, ask yourself what you will do when you get out of school? What job will you apply to? Consider applying to those jobs without a degree. I know that most jobs say they require a degree, but most jobs do not, in fact, require that even though they say they do.

      So it’s not worth spending all that time in school if you do not love going to school. I think what you’ll really love is getting your daughters through high school and then moving out of your mom’s house with a level of emotional strength that you’ve reached through intensive therapy.

      Penelope

    • Leslie 7:25 pm on April 19, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      If your school has a counseling degree program it may also have free individual and group therapy clinics with student therapists who need the experience.

    • Cheddar 10:43 am on April 24, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      What jumped out at me was your idea that McDonalds is so far beneath you. It is a tough economy, especially for people without a lot of recent experience. My understanding of fast food businesses is that it is really hard in some areas to find reliable, mature full time workers. McDonalds has a training program where shift managers end up making somewhat higher pay. This doesn’t have to be your career for the rest of your life. Penelope had good advice!

    • anonymous 2:57 am on April 30, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      Penelope is right: you are probably doing a good job with your daughters. But part of continuing to do a good job with them is by taking care of yourself. If they see you working to be the best person you can be and not being self-pitying, they will likely mimic that in their own lives.

      Additionally, I do understand where you are at. I am almost your age (late thirties) and have spent the last year and a half living with my parents. I felt more like an adult seventeen years ago when I first got out on my own than I do now. My best advice to you is: get out of your Mom’s house, even if you have to live in a sh–thole, or, with roommates for a while. Believe me: I am trying to do the same myself. You will never feel like an adult while with her.

      Finally, look at what you have accomplished and what you have the potential to accomplish. You spent ten years as an aide in a school: that is not a meaningless job. That says a lot about the type of person you are and that you prioritize education work. However, I have to ask, if you only have eight credits done toward your AA degree, is that really the best plan? I have a BA in the sciences and am struggling to find work because I haven’t really used the degree much in recent years.

      If you do an AA, I would think you would want to find something vocational that would qualify you for a specific job when you got done. I can’t think of much you could do with an AA in the sciences unless you had plans for much additional education work after. Maybe consider an AA degree that will come with some kind of certifications?

  • Mailbag 1:08 pm on March 31, 2013 Permalink | Reply  

    I have bi-polar disorder and I keep getting fired 

    I have bipolar disorder. If my meds are working and the stress level is reasonable (I can accept a tight solid well defined deadline) I deliver superior work. I am a systems engineer and damn good at what I do. I have received national recognition for a system i built. I developed a software architecture that goes to sea with every Navy aircraft carrier.

    But when the meds are wavering, and somebody proposes something bat shit stupid, I lose it. The manic part of bipolar kicks in and I am furious, angry, rude, throwing things, and generally being a 100% walking tantrum time bomb.

    I have never held a job longer than 3 years before completely alienating everyone in the company or having a meltdown severe enough to either get fired or decide to move myself along.

    I have not only burned bridges, I have nuked them. I can’t go into consulting. No people skills for politics and networking. There are pretty much only three major corporations in my area of expertise that I haven’t worked at and they do a lot of defense work. I do not want to design something that kills people and I don’t want the hassle of a security clearance.

    And I have just been laid off.

    I need some advice.

     

    • Penelope Trunk 1:17 pm on March 31, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      You don’t have a lot of choices beside defense if you have already gotten into trouble at the other companies. Not everything in the defense industry is designed to kill people. And, frankly, there’s plenty of nefarious stuff being built in most industries, so I think, in this case, you can bite the bullet and go to defense.

      However if you stay in a company for four years with no outbursts, I bet one of your former companies will take you back, and then. You can change your career by changing your emotional patterns.

      Here are some suggestions on how to do that.

      1. Disappear.
      I worked for a CEO who was bipolar — which is common among CEOs, by the way — and when he was in bad shape he just disappeared until he could get on even keel again. And we just sort of got used to that he’d disappear for two or three days.

      2. Different types of therapy.
      Anger management training and cognitive behavior therapy might work to help you stop the outbursts in the office.

      3. Making rules for yourself.
      You need better rules for yourself leading up to a yelling fit so you don’t even get close to a yelling fit. Like, people who want to lose weight can’t go out to dinner because it will take too much restraint to stay on the diet.

      For example, you could announce, before the meeting, I am not dealing well emotionally today so I am not going to talk in this meeting. I will only listen. And people will say okay. People can be accommodating as long as you’re not a jerk. Other ideas for rules for yourself are: no talking to people for that day, or not talking in a meeting or no answering emails becuase you feel like you might be bad.

      4. More medication.
      Sometimes you can mix medication with bipolar meds. (You’d have to check with a doctor, of course).
      But you could use pills to calm yourself down on days when you can tell you are a firecracker and you have to be near people. You can take a Xanax or something else which might really decrease your perforamance but it will keep you from yelling. Also, I think respidril can be used for immediate panic. I’m not sure.

      I guess what I’m saying is that you need better rules and plans for yourself so you can’t open your mouth on days when you are not good. And then you need to get a job, maybe even not your dream job, and be nice to people in that job. That will open up more opportunities for you.

      Penelope

    • downfromtheledge 8:37 pm on April 4, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      You might be able to find a support group in your area to hear ideas from other people on how they manage their bipolar.

      There might be an opportunity to fine-tune the meds and figure out how to recognize and better respond to your triggers in this period where you’re not facing the challenge of dealing with co-workers.

    • anonymous 2:30 am on April 30, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      You need to go into teaching. A lot of teachers/professors are expected to have a certain level of craziness (hey, if you doubt this, just read the NYT recent article: The Professor and the Bikini Model). Also, I think there is a huge demand for people to be systems engineers, or, anything software design related, so there should be a demand for people who can teach that stuff. Then, once established with at least a regular part-time teaching job, you could do consulting on the side. Just don’t think of it as networking, if you know that is something you are not good at. Just stay working and on target in your field in any way you can as you never know what will come up at another company or institution that is not defense related.

      Also, please do not use bipolar as an excuse, I have never been bipolar so I don’t know what it is like but I have had experience with other disorders and my own temper related issues. You are only limited by that diagnosis to the extent that you use it to define yourself. Best of luck.

    • Cora 10:46 am on May 13, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      Hi,

      Penelope, lots of the ideas you are talking about are covered in a mental health model called wellness recovery action planning. It basically means making a plan covering what you need to stay well (Meds, exercise etc) how you and others can tell you are becoming unwell, what you and others can do. You write all this down and share it with a small group of ‘supporters’. It helps people feel in control of their own symptoms and well being.

  • Mailbag 12:44 am on March 29, 2013 Permalink | Reply  

    I want to be a professional poker player 

    I am in a serious dilemma in a crossroads in my life. My dad is an old school, wealthy conservative who wants me to join the workforce like he did and slave away my life to something I don’t necessarily feel good about. I can’t spend my life in a office, I simply can’t and I know this deep inside me.

    My true passion lies in one thing- Poker. I have studied and played the game since I was 13 (I’m 22 now) and I have no doubt in my mind that it is what I want to do with my life. Don’t misjudge my passion though, it is not solely in pursuit of money. I have fallen in love with the game and the people. When I sit at a table and watch and study the people across from me I feel at home. I am competitive and intelligent, and I always have had a fascination with observing people and what drives them. I also love to meet people and be social. There is no better place to see every kind of person than at a poker table.

    I want to watch people and guess what they are thinking every single day of my life. I want to die on the felt.

    Here is the problem: I have one semester left in college and I had to pay for it on my credit card because my dad was not happy that I failed a class. I have always done well in school, but I find undergraduate school very pointless. I have learned nothing in college and I struggled to put any focus into it- I have always spent my time reading books about succeeding at poker. I am in debt and have no money to pursue what I want to and my dad won’t help me at it because he is severely against it.

    Gambling has always been an iffy career choice, but the game, Texas Hold em, has stood the test of time and feeds many, many people as a career. My dad doesn’t believe me and won’t help me.

    How do I get away from my debt and embark on my true passion?

    - Anonymous Poker Player

     

    • Penelope Trunk 12:45 am on March 29, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I know professional poker players. They are good enough to not go into debt – even when they are young. So you’re probably not good enough to go pro. And if you are, do it now because you don’t need a degree.

      Since you are probably not good enough you should get an internship doing domething that you can put on your resume so that when you graduate you can get s job.

      I hope this helps.

      Penelope

    • Anonymous 12:51 am on March 29, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I may have been confusing, I am not in debt from playing I have records of me being a winning player since every session I have logged. I am in debt from school!

      I don’t have the cash to even go try and I feel like this is the perfect time to go try… I just want to be go try but my dad is evil. He has so much money.

      - Anonymous Poker Player

    • Penelope Trunk 12:52 am on March 29, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      Your dad isn’t evil. You’re a brat. If you have a winning record you can get an investor to give you $5000 in exchange for a percentage of your earning for a period of time.

      Your dad doesn’t help you by giving you money. You are essentially running a startup, right? You need an investor. If you have a good record you can figure out how to get startup money. That’s what most people do your age when they have an idea they can execute on and they need money – they don’t go to their parents. You need to be an adult and play by adult rules. You are just a whiner when you write that your dad won’t make it easy for you.

      Penelope

    • Anoel 4:27 pm on March 29, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      Penelope’s suggestion is probably better but if you can’t find an investor-why not teach people how to play poker? I know it’s something I’d hire a tutor for. There’s plenty of people who would pay for that. Check out I Will Teach You To Be Rich if you want to learn ways to find target markets and such but that should help out with getting the money to get in the game and win more money.

    • Alice 3:39 am on March 30, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      Penelope is completely correct about the description of Anonymous as a “brat.” As a twentysomething who spent the first three years out of college paying back my own college loans, this kind of “poor me” attitude seems incredibly pervasive among my cohort.

      The alternative perspective here is that Anonymous’ “evil” Dad spent his time and money creating a stable environment where he could grow up and pursue a hobby that his dad doesn’t understand but that Anonymous has enjoyed from a relatively young age. I think more people in my generation could use to stop blaming our parents for our problems and take responsibility for life as a real live adult.

      Here in Los Angeles, we work in (gasp!) an office during the week, then hoof it to Vegas for poker on the weekends. Shockingly, we manage to make money and support a fun hobby this way, no permission from Dad needed.

    • Becky Castle Miller 7:59 am on March 30, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I think what Penelope means about debt is broadly applicable. The good players known not to go into debt…you weren’t smart enough to avoid school debt. You went into credit card debt to finish a degree you don’t care about, which means you’re probably undisciplined enough to go into debt playing poker as well. The suggestion by the other commenter to teach other people how to play poker till you’re debt-free is a good one. Run online courses to teach poker. Do private tutoring. Host in-person game seminars where you match people up so they have fun playing while you teach them — your skills at reading people will work well there.

    • CL 2:50 pm on March 30, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I’m the same age as the OP and I think that he should have just dropped out of college instead of putting the tuition bill on a credit card. That’s a dumb move.

      In Penelope’s post on how to decide whether your kid should go to college http://homeschooling.penelopetrunk.com/2013/02/26/five-ways-to-tell-if-your-kid-should-go-to-college/, she links to Tynan, who made a living off of being a professional poker player: http://tynan.com/hustle?safari=1. It’s possible to be a professional poker player and you irrationally decided to go for your college degree at the same time.

      When I read the post and Penelope’s response, I knew that you had no gambling debt. That’s not the issue. You’re so entitled that you think that your dad should pay for your schooling EVEN THOUGH you apparently failed a class. You don’t need to be in college – it has almost no bearing on your desired future career – but you decided to go anyway. That’s on you, buddy, not on your dad.

    • dan 3:08 pm on May 5, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I have been a professional gambler for over 10 years starting when I was 17. The only way gambling can work as a career is if you are very good, otherwise you will have too much stress and run the risk of going broke and you won’t have much upward potential. If you were good enough, you would know by now and there is no doubt about that. Good player’s do not need investors because why share profits when you don’t have to?

      Keep poker as a hobby.

      If what you say is true, and you are one of those strange people who really has a passion for poker and want to be involved in it, consider getting a job as a dealer in a poker room in Vegas, or you could find some sort of job at PokerStars, there are also new poker start up companies based off of the new internet currency bitcoins which may have some opportunities.

    • Satori 4:09 pm on May 5, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      The question was “How do I get away from my debt and embark on my true passion?” and I don’t see any thing here telling this young individual to follow their passion but rather people shutting it down and suggesting ways around it. If this is truly your passion you should pursue it but consider the costs as well. Not all professional poker players were always at that level but they were able to achieve it eventually. Semi-professional poker players still work part time jobs at the same time to take care of things such as debt from education. Many people fall into debt because of school and still end up being professional poker players… You have to work hard to get yourself out of that debt i.e. part time job and still devote much time to working on your game if you are wanting to succeed. Just know that there are risks involved at if you over commit you could find yourself in a sticky situation but you know what, taking risks is part of being a poker player and an entrepreneur at that. Follow your dreams but be smart about it at the same time :)

    • dan 5:02 pm on May 5, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      satori, your post is ignorant and poorly thought out.

      I don’t really care if this guy has a passion for poker or not. If he wants to pursue it in his spare time as a hobby then good for him. If you want him to pursue it as a “semi-professional” in a manner in which he depends on his winnings to support himself than you are being dumb. He has played poker for ten years and is still asking for a $500 loan to play poker. So if we are gonna be smart people here and use stuff like logic and reason to predict the future (which btw is a pretty important trait if you don’t want to lose all your money in poker), then we would look at his past and see how poor his results have been in poker and realize that the same is probably gonna happen in the future.

      I could go on for ever about how silly the idea is that this guy tries to go poker professionally now, or about your response Satori… in fact I recommend the original person goes to http://www.twoplustwo.com a massive poker forum and search the archives he will find endless information by life time gamblers, famous players, other college students like him about similar situations and no one who knows anything would say to pursue poker as the number one priority.

      The most likely scenario here if he did pursue full time is that he would get a part time job or a loan from someone to play poker. He would spend most of his time playing and less time studying. He may win $1000 or even $2000 a month for half a year and then he is gonna get unlucky at the table, have some personal problem, and lose the $6,000 he managed to build up from poker in a 30 hour session. He’s gonna hate poker, not have learnt much useful, want to win back his money but not be able to, and be isolated because poker is a lonely game.

  • Mailbag 4:46 pm on January 14, 2013 Permalink  

    I’m scared having kids will ruin my career 

    Your post titled How to Pick a Husband if You Want to Have Kids really reasonated with me.  Well, half of it did.  I already have a husband, and I’m 31 years old.  I’m an ENFJ, so a lot of my self-worth comes from my career achievements (I’m a lawyer), but relationships are very important to me too.  Not just my relationship with my husband.  This is going to sound borderline sociopathic, but I get excited when I’m able to make a connection with an interesting person who is really introverted.
    Anyway, right now I am trying to assess whether I should have children at all.  My husband definitely wants them. I think I want them too, but in reality, I know I would really struggle, especially the first few years because I would have to compromise at work.  And he makes about twice as much money as me, so I would have to be the one to take the longer maternity leave and work around the nanny/daycare/whatever schedule much more than him, at least for now.

    But if I decide no kids ever (leaving aside the damage to my marriage that would ensure), how do I know I won’t wake up when I’m 45 and really regret it?  My personality makes me think that would probably happen.  Then again, if I don’t have that strong urge to be a mother now, will I ever have it?

    People constantly say I’m really nurturing, and I’d be a great mom.  My own mother died when I was 22, so I don’t have a great sounding board for this stuff.  Part of this may be coming from me seeing friends have babies and struggle with it.  Three of my best friends from law school had kids within the past year, and all three tried to go back but quit working entirely within the first year.

    What is your advice for women like me who are already pretty far into their careers and did not take your advice to have kids early?

     

    • Penelope Trunk 4:53 pm on January 14, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      You should have kids.

      You get to choose what you do with your life. So if you have kids and you want to have a big career, you will. And if you don’t like having a big career and you want to cut back and have more time with your kids, you’ll do that.

      That’s how it was for me. I’ve tried both. I just do what feels right for me. You say you are and ENFJ (https://type-coach.com/types/enfj) so you are going to be great at both – work and kids – so you should give yourself the opportunity to do both. Instead of feeling tortured that you might want to do both, feel strong and capable that you’ll be great at both.

      Good luck!

      Penelope

  • Mailbag 4:18 pm on January 10, 2013 Permalink  

    I’m 40 and I hate my high-paying job 

    I feel stuck.  I have been doing consulting in the Big 4 for around 10  years now and it’s just getting old.  I took the test and I am burnt out.  I took the other test and it appears that I may not have a good job and then I took another test and it shows me that I am an ISTJ. After you get the  result from that personality test it provides links to jobs that may be good for that type and I am already in those jobs and have been most of my 13 year career.

    I feel like I have been trying to get out of consulting for years now, but now that I look at the openings that exist in my market that are outside of consulting, it appears that I don’t have the skills to do those and it feels  like consulting is the only thing I can do (which is not the case….I’ll admit to having a broader skill set than just being a consultant).  I don’t know where to start to get unstuck.  I need to reinvigorate my career and find interest in what I do or I need to find something else.

    I am risk averse though.  My wife quit work 3 years ago to stay at home with our four kids.  We live comfortably on my salary, but I can’t take a massive pay cut to get into something that would potentially make me happier.  That will just lead to more stress.  Also, I am rooted firmly in Columbus.  All of my family is here and it’s a good place to raise a family.

    I need to find something where I get some kind of fulfillment.  Telling  people all of the things they do wrong and how they could be better isn’t doing it for me lately.  I’m 36 and I feel like I hit a wall.  I am  unmotivated and constantly thinking about how can I get a new job that will provide something closer to an 8-5, will keep me off the road and will let me be more present in my kids lives.

    My hope is that someone else has emailed you about this before and you can just copy and paste that answer here, but I know one size does not fit in with career advice.  I ordered a couple of the books you referenced on your site as well, so I am hoping that they provide some guidance or perspective.

    Any insight you could provide would be much appreciated.

     

    • Penelope Trunk 4:20 pm on January 10, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      You make a lot of money from consulting because you sell them your soul – you have long hours and heavy travel and you have to criticize people all the time instead of build things with them. That’s why consultants get paid so much.

      If you don’t want to sell your soul then you can’t keep that salary.

      So, actually, it is pretty much cut-and-paste advice. I would say that 50% of men who are supporting a family get to age 40 and don’t want to be doing their job any more but don’t want to take a pay cut. The men who take a pay cut and force their family to scale back expenses end up being way happier than the men who don’t.

      Of course your kids would rather have a happy father in a very small house than a big house and great vacations and a dad who doesn’t like his job.

      The majority of men I coach for this problem end up switching jobs. And here’s why: the thing holding you back is the pay cut. And a pay cut is actually a personal issue, not a work issue, but you’re not used to dealing with personal issues – your wife is. So you are uncomfortable having to set aside work stuff and deal with the personal issue of pay cuts. Once you do that, you will have a really clear vision of what your next steps should be.

      Penelope

    • Bill 12:16 am on January 11, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      Hello Mr. “I hate my high-paying job” –

      Been there and done that, and I can tell you from experience that Penelope is right – I missed a large part of my son’s very early years because I was traveling and staying in China making cheap digital cameras for the mass market – traded that for exec position at silicon company – ended up traveling more times per year for shorter durations, that still didn’t work – Ultimately I loved the job, but I loved my family more – Chocolate Vanilla – choose – I chose the family – and boy am I glad I did – now I have teenage kids that say things like “You are the only dad I know that is not an embarrassment” – meaning I actually talk to them, I know what they are up to, help them with homework, etc…we don’t travel as much as we used to, and 1 weekend ski trip a year is really pushing the envelope in terms of finances – but we are happy! Downsize my friend, just like the advice you probably gave several customers – downsize….

      Bill

    • Aaron 8:46 am on January 11, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I’ve thought quite a bit about your response since I read it yesterday. I think I have always linked money to be a somewhat of a personal choice, which is largely driven by professional choices. I’ve had offers in the past (3) years to take a cut and stay local and I have had offers to make 20% more and travel more. I chose not to take those jobs because I knew I didn’t want to travel more and because I felt like making less money could impact my family’s personal life. My kids would not get to be in some of the things they are in and we could not take vacations (not that we go on extravagant vacations all the time…..at most we may got to Florida every few years and then we travel to see my wife’s family too). My wife’s family lives in IA, TX and IN so if we want to go see them it costs a good chunk of change. Part of me thinks if I hold out 1-2 more years, I can make Senior Manager and then if I can find something in market it will be at a salary that I can more easily stomach. I think I said the same thing about being a manager though.

      As you said, consulting steals your soul. It’s an absolute grind. It’s why the average duration someone stays in the Big 4 is around 2-2.5 years. Because I got into the Big 4 late, my peer group consists of some 27 year old managers with no wife, no kids and no travel restrictions. I can’t keep up with those guys. Other people deserve my time. I think at least now I have opened my search to a broader range of opportunities, but there is still a minimum salary I would consider to be local. I’ve worked really hard to get to where I am, both from a professional perspective and from an educational/certification perspective so I don’t want to regret taking a step back and then disliking the work. The money is a big part of my issue, but it’s not the only part. I need to do some more work on my end to figure out what would make me happy and would allow me to provide for my family the way I want to. Building houses for Habitat for Humanity fills the soul, but it won’t pay for trips to Houston or vacations to Florida. I know you already said that we’d need to cut back and reevaluate in your previous response, but I need my next move to make sense personally, professionally and financially.

      I’m not a bad parent. I am involved with my kids and my travel with this firm has not been as much as it was with my previous firm. I know one thing that I always think about is the archetype of my father. He was the blue collar guy that worked 8-5 and was at all of the events he could be for me and my 6 other siblings. I want to be that guy and the fact that my schedule is so inconsistent with what I do now, it’s hard to be that guy. I do consider the fact that when my Dad was the 8-5 guy, there were no such things as laptops and PDAs so when he left work he left work. I think I need to shift my mindset a bit and realize that an 8-5 may no longer be attainable in the digital age.

      Thanks again for your insight.

    • Charlene 12:28 pm on January 11, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I think this still sounds like you’re not willing to give something up and until you are you won’t be able to make the change; I’m not saying you will have to give something up but you have to be willing to. If you can decide what that is you’ll be able to move forward.

      You sound like the type of guy that talks to his family but I’ve seen so many people who think that they’re working their butt off for the ‘stuff” and their partners see the ‘stuff’ as the bonus for living with someone that’s working their butt off.

      Penelope and Bill are right, money is the focus and you’re right that after 13 years what’s another 1-2? So I think you should cut back immediately, live a downsized life on an upsized salary and save the extra cash (you might need it if you change jobs). Use the time to network, do stuff for free and explore other avenues. If you can’t handle it you haven’t lost much.

    • Aaron 12:55 pm on January 11, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I am definitely willing to give something up, but it needs to be the right balance of something. I can’t exactly tell my wife today that I am going to go work for a not for profit and take a 75% pay cut and then network and try to find a better match for me career-wise. It’s got to be the right balance and it can’t cause an abrupt impact to the way we live. Me being happy cannot equal us not paying the mortgage.

      If by “stuff” you are referring to being materialistic, then no. We are very conservative. I come from a large family that didn’t have much growing up so I don’t spend frivolously. We buy used cars (none of them luxury sedans) and we use coupons and we wait for sales when we make large purchases.

      Thanks for the insight. I think finding a better job that requires less of my time really is the key, which is the common theme among all responses. After all, I think most everyone’s goal is to work as little as possible and make the most money for that time spent working. I’m optimistic that the right opportunity will come my way. I just need to be patient and weather the storm until then.

    • Charlene 1:59 pm on January 11, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      You could totally say that, people say that, sometimes people don’t have a choice but to say that but you’ve drawn a boundary and that’s cool.

      By ‘stuff’ I wasn’t specifically suggesting being materialistic, you said ‘my kids would not get to be in the things they are in’. I don’t have kids, I don’t know what this means but I’m going to assume it’s not referring to school, food or shelter so to my mind it’s excess if not excessive. To be honest my comment was a bit off piste with you because you come across as someone who is thoughtful in their actions.

      I think ultimately I’m all about Penelope’s advice and in your first letter you sounded strongly like you wanted a different career and that to me would mean less money: http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2011/10/14/when-its-ok-to-take-a-pay-cut/

      Oh and I forgot to say best of luck with everything.

    • channa 4:27 pm on January 11, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I can’t imagine you’re going to come up with any good ideas if all you’re doing is working to get away from something you don’t like, rather than working toward something that you want. You’re not being materialistic in thinking about the pay cut you’re just being logical – of course you’d trade money for happiness but you’d be stupid to trade money for something unknown.

      I’m a consultant too and it’s very easy to drift from project to project without taking responsibility for getting yourself into the right roles that will build up the experience set you’ll need in the future. Your employer won’t solve that for you. And the people who aren’t following a specific plan toward an objective will get thrown into the worst client situations – because the people who have good plans dodge those situations since being in a horrible client situation doesn’t advance their goals.

      If you live in a small city and don’t want to travel and need stability then there are only a limited number of companies you can even work for so that narrows your options. I am not yet ready to leave consulting but I have a spreadsheet of companies in my city and the types of roles that they offer at my level and above and the experiences that I need to get into those roles. So even though I don’t have a specific target I have an idea of what I need to focus on. I pre-write my resume for different roles so I can identify the gaps.

      When I get offered a role at work that doesn’t fit with any of my desired future options, I push back as hard as possible to get out of it. I’d rather my achievement metrics at my current job suffer than fail to make progress toward my next step. And when I see a potentially good role I fight to get it.

      So my advice would be to put yourself on a two-year plan – do an exhaustive survey of the job landscape in your town, do informational interviews with people in roles that you think might work, identify a few target options of companies and roles. Then figure out the gaps in your profile and what type of projects/roles you need to get on in the next year or two to fill them.

      The great thing with consulting is you can get experience so quickly and you can use your expertise to spider between horizontal and vertical functions to move you toward what you want. E.g. if you do change management but you want to work in marketing, do change management for a marketing org; if you do supply chain but want to do HR, do an organizational re-design for a supply chain org. If you are great at operations but haven’t managed large teams, get a PMO role for an operations project. You’ve got tons of leverage you just need a real goal.

    • Susie 1:24 pm on January 12, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I just want to point out that your letter is full of assumptions. That you don’t have non-consulting skills, even though you admit this is not the case. That you can’t take a risk or a pay cut or move from the area. You sound really stuck and I feel for you, but what have you done to test these assumptions? Maybe if you put everything on the table with an open mind, you could find the wiggle room you need to make a change.

    • emily 5:17 pm on January 13, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I’m with Charlene (+ Penelope). If you tell your wife that you want to spend more time with her and you want to contribute to handling the emotional weight of the family then perhaps she’ll be a lot more sympathetic. I just made a similar kind of transition and while it’s a big change I feel like I have my future back.

    • Aaron 3:18 pm on January 14, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      Quite a bit of good advice. Thank you for all of the input.

      Emily: It’s not that my wife is not on board. She is fine with me taking the cut to be happy. For me though, I have not come to terms with how it will impact us and the way we live now. A new job is a big unknown until you get into it. I’d be pretty disappointed if I left to take a pay cut and then I despise what I am doing or the people I am working with more than I do now.

      Susie: I think I have had most everything on the table for quite some time now. I’m just not willing to take away some things from my family that I can now give them because I make decent money. I can take a cut, but it has to be for the right opportunity. Perhaps I am not to that point where it’s either leave or my personal life is going to implode. I have a job so I feel like I have some ability to be picky right now. As far as moving, that is not really on the table. My family is in the city I live in and I don’t want to leave from here. It’s a great place to raise a family and very affordable. I’ve had great offers to relo, but it’s not of interest.

      Channa: I think those comments are well aligned with the approach I have taken the last few years. With the consulting I do, it’s specialized. I can’t tell my bosses I want to go implement an ERP today and then in six months tell them I want to go build a cloud services frameworw. I am a bit siloed with what I do, but my background is fairly broad across IT, which is something I am going to try to build on. There are several other variables that are currently impacting my career growth (employee retention, strategic hiring issues and the organization being very top heavy) with my current organization. I’m sure that sounds like a litany of excuses, but they are real issues that are impacting me and my ability to have the consulting experience that was laid out above. The one where you get to drive what you do and where you get to better position yourself for the exit from consulting. I have scoured LinkedIn to find people with similar backgrounds and certifications as me that are in my area and I have a thorough list of what companies may be able to use me. On top of that, I keep abreast of local business news that may speak to an influx of jobs or other information that could impact me being a potential candidate somewhere.

      • Alexis 12:06 pm on January 15, 2013 Permalink | Reply

        Sorry Aaron – I responded after reading only your original comment. I see now that “luxurious” doesn’t necessarily describe your life.

        Why not ultimately try new careers, and rather than worrying that they’ll be worse than what you have now – take a mitigated risk, but confidently working towards careers you strongly feel will be a good fit. The information interviews are a great idea. This quote comes to mind: “I do not regret the things I’ve done, but those I did not do.”

        I hope things work out for you :)

    • Alexis 11:51 am on January 15, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      You might want to check out http://www.mrmoneymustache.com for ideas on how to live your life on less money. Mr. Money Mustache offers some really practical advice on how to save money, make money in unique/enjoyable/unexpected ways (depending on your interests and skillset) and how to have fun in life without spending lots of money.

      His really key articles offer case studies about people that have learned to cut back on their luxurious lifestyles in favour of something simpler, but more rewarding.

      Best of luck to you!

    • CL 6:18 pm on February 5, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      +1
      I was going to write this. It seems like this guy is so worried about the financial stuff but he’s pretty conservative with his expenditures as is. So that means that a) he is lying about his current savings due to his low-cost lifestyle or b) he is already pretty Mustachian and just needs the door to be opened. In the words of one of my friend’s dads, “If money is your only problem, then you don’t have a problem.”

      I feel like Aaron has so much anxiety about what taking the plunge would be, but I’m very sure that he’d feel relieved. The guy in the comment thread who said this said that it was tough to do but completely worth it. Aaron really needs to project what life would be like if he quit and go from there. Either he has the position to do it now or he can work towards being positioned to do it in the near future.

    • dean4860 7:37 pm on March 23, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I worked in economic consulting for about 3 years after completing a PhD. I thought it was an absolutely horrible job. After about 1 year of intense searching a found a teaching with a pay that is only slightly less than my consulting job (mind you I was just an associate so my pay was close to 100K). However, I now have a defined benefit pension plan and that is worth a lot more in the long-run. I am so happy I switched and made the decision to quite consulting. I feel like I got out of jail.

      If you are not happy than you have nothing to lose. Always keep your eyes open for new positions.

  • Mailbag 10:49 pm on December 13, 2012 Permalink  

    What do I say when the interviewer asks who’s taking care of my kids? 

    I am a mother of three children under four years old and I am currently searching for a job. I just got home from an interview for a corporate job with a company I’d love to work for, and the woman screening me asked me several times about how many kids I have, how old they are, what my feelings are about leaving them with a caregiver all day, and so on.

    I did not volunteer this information, it came up because she asked why I left my old job (my last company folded just as I was leaving for maternity leave). I found it hard to tell whether she was asking this information because she was unsure about my ability to do the job, or whether she just wanted to talk about her own maternity leave and desire for more kids.

    If I pass the personality screening test I wrote today, I will have an interview with the chairman. My question is, how do I address questions about my family size/future reproductive plans without saying, “That question is illegal” or “That’s none of your business”? Please advise!

     

     

    • Penelope Trunk 10:52 pm on December 13, 2012 Permalink | Reply

      Its an illegal question so you can lie.

      I think one of the most effective lies in this situation is to say your mother or mother-in-law takes care of the kids. Say that it’s a great setup because she’s always dreamed of taking care of grandchildren and you always knew you’d want to work.

      The point is to make it sound like the kids are a total non-issue when you’re at work. Say it like you’re the luckiest mom in the world, and you’re thrilled with the setup, and you’re so happy to be going back to work.

      Penelope

    • Jana Miller 11:11 pm on December 13, 2012 Permalink | Reply

      Brilliant!

    • Violeta 8:38 am on December 14, 2012 Permalink | Reply

      I agree with you, Penelope, that this is an illegal question. And, if asked by a screener, I certainly would not appreciate that question either.
      However, it is a very good question which this mother must be able to answer truthfully to herself. If this mother of 3 under 4 applying for a corporate job does not have a lot of money for a lot of paid help and if she does not have a very supportive husband, then lying her way into the job would not be a good strategy at all.

    • Penelope Trunk 9:39 am on December 14, 2012 Permalink | Reply

      That might be true. But women do not need everyone to be their psychologist. When a woman interviews, she decided she wants to work. She is an adult. The world does not need to treat her like an incompetent imbecile who did not think of the ramifications of work before she interviewed.

      Do you think that interviewer asks men who is taking care of their kids? And if that interviewer did ask men that question, the men would think the interviewer is nuts. Which is what women should think: that the interviewer is nuts.

      Penelope

    • Jessica 5:13 pm on December 14, 2012 Permalink | Reply

      Brava!!!

    • BrendaPatimkin 10:38 am on January 2, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I have/had a similar situation when people ask about my MA. Often I get “That’s expensive, how did you do that?”. The question may not be illegal, but it is rude, nosy and has nothing to do with my ability to do a job well. I usually say, “Well, my hard work in undergrad, great recommendations and admissions essay paid off. I was awarded a very large scholarship that covered the cost.” They don’t need details. They just need to know that it wasn’t, and isn’t, an issue.

    • kristen 9:40 am on January 12, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I love this answer.

    • Laurie Bluestone 5:00 pm on January 15, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      Legal or not, this is a real question that I have been asked during the interview process of more than one firm. It’s been asked directly or indirectly so if you have kids be prepared to be asked this in some variation.

      The president of a 7000 employee company once asked me “You’re a young woman, what are your family plans?” I looked him in the eye and said in my best level steel-magnolia voice “XXX if I did not believe I could add signifiant value and do it for a long time I wouldn’t have wasted your time and mine to fly here today to meet you.” He looked relieved and we moved on to other topics.

      Don’t let the question throw off what could be a great job. I ended up working for XXX for six years and learned a great deal about executive leadership watching him in action. Years later I asked him about the question. He laughed “I remember that. Your face said you’ve had it covered and I really didn’t need to know anything else.”

      Relay that you have it covered. Short and sweet. They don’t need to know who is providing your child care. It doesn’t matter if the care givers are in-laws, day-care providers, au pairs, a stay-at-home spouse or house trained kangaroos. They just need confirmation you have a system in place.

      We all have home lives, not just business lives so have your line or two down before you interview. I agree with what others have posted, they don’t need details they just need to know it’s not an issue….and good luck!

      PS Penelope, do you know many men volunteer this info during the interview process?

  • Mailbag 11:42 pm on December 10, 2012 Permalink  

    My last boss hates me. What can I say in the interview? 

    I was in a gender harassment situation that I left about two years ago, and did not really think about my future as I was exiting the situation. I have had a lot of personal trauma around the experience, and realize that I can’t use my last job for reference even though I was there for five years. What should I do? I still need to be able to work.

     

    • Penelope Trunk 11:43 pm on December 10, 2012 Permalink | Reply

      Just start looking for another job, and don’t worry about the last boss not liking you.

      Most people will not ask to call your last job as a reference. If someone asks for a reference, just give them the name of someone else. It’s okay. Plenty of people can’t use their last job as a reference. Talk about your last job like it was great, and you were great at it,
      and say you left because you needed a break – which is true, you did need a break. Say now you’re ready to go back to work and you’re excited to do a good job again.

      Don’t be hesitant about saying that you were a great performer at the last job. That’s what’ll get you another job. It doesn’t matter if your last boss thought you were a top performer or not. It matters what you say you were. It’s subjective.

      Penelope

    • downfromtheledge 7:39 am on December 11, 2012 Permalink | Reply

      I feel your pain. I came close to committing suicide as a result of harrassment from a boss. When I quit, my next 4 years consisted of being suicidal and unemployed. So right now I have to count myself lucky that I am only *underemployed* and making half of what I am worth, because not having references (and now a spotty employment record) has f*cked me over.

      Nearly every employment application I have filled out DOES require the name of your previous boss, or requires you to list 3 supervisory references – not just colleagues – and you can’t just leave a required field empty. Or it can be very conspicuous to leave off….and there are certain fields like education where they are just going to call your previous principal, and there’s no hiding who it was.

      This is a very real employment barrier that can’t just be talked away with a positive attitude, and not everyone is a great bullshitter who can lie their way through an interview. I had my most confident interview ever 2 weeks ago for a job I am more than qualified for…answered all the tough questions about my gaps in employment…doesn’t seem to matter what explanation I give, because I have tried them all. To no avail.

    • Morgan 3:35 pm on December 11, 2012 Permalink | Reply

      Employees put way too much weight on references. Most companies won’t even give out a reference, even if you’ve specifically given permission – there is way too much liability. Future employers may call to verify employment, but that’s about the extent of it.

    • Jen 11:07 am on December 12, 2012 Permalink | Reply

      Morgan is right. The last several companies I’ve worked for had a policy of only providing confirmation of dates of employment and nothing else for past employees. They would provide salary confirmation only if the employee requested it. The easiest way to handle this is to list the general number for HR at the employer. They will call and get the basic verification that way. If asked directly about your previous supervisor just state that you haven’t kept in touch.

    • WorkinProgress 10:36 am on January 8, 2013 Permalink | Reply

      I had this experience with my last job. My boss and I were like oil and vingar. I asked a colleague to please be a reference for me. I basically said, “I know BOSS and I didn’t always see eye-to-eye. Would you be able to talk about some projects we did together, my personality and work ethic?”

      My colleauge left me a very kind voicemail that said, “No problem about BOSS. I’m happy to be a reference.”

      Sometimes honesty really is the best policy.

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